Why surrogacy should be banned

[DomesticatedZombie]

• article from Stefanie Bode.

'It’s always harmful. It harms our health, it exploits our bodies; it’s dependent on global inequalities and makes them worse; it violates our dignity, our physical integrity and many others of our human rights. It is a form of slavery (of women and children), and obviously it’s violence against women and children. It makes babies into commodities. It’s very cruel and inhumane to women and babies to separate a baby from its mother. '

www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2022/2/8/why-surrogacy-should-be-banned

@oatlattetogo

The woman who gives birth is the mother. If a woman has her own baby with the use of a donor egg, for particular reasons such as genetic disease, would you tell her that it isn’t her baby?

They’re not really comparable though, are they? You wouldn’t say that to a woman in those circumstances (or a man, if a sperm donor had been used) because it’s a nasty thing to say and really, being someone’s parents is about far more than birth and genetics. My dad is technically my step father. As far as we are all concerned he’s my dad, but if we did a DNA test it would obviously say that he wasn’t. We all know that, we’re not idiots, but he’s still my dad.

I am opposed to commercial surrogacy, but I think it’s much harder (for me, personally) to criticise those acting as surrogates for friends, family members etc, especially if the eggs and sperm of the intended parents are being used. And if babies are always damaged by being removed from their birth mothers (which some people have implied) then how were there so many people who didn’t find out they were adopted until they were older children/adults and had lovely, happy childhoods?

They are comparable. Either the person who gives birth is the mother or the person whose genetics are used is the mother. You can’t have it both ways. It is a nasty thing to say, you would never say to a mother who used a donor egg that she isn’t the mother, but somehow it’s okay to say to the woman who gave birth to a baby in a surrogacy arrangement that she isn’t the mother?!

Many children who are removed from their birth mothers have happy childhoods, but many struggle when they find out. When it is intended to remove a newborn from its mother because she has been deemed unfit, a judge has to decide that that is a reasonable thing to do because of the significance of doing so. But in surrogacy, the baby is just…taken. Doesn’t that strike you as uneven?

Only time I've ever seen keeping up with the kardashians one of them was getting counselling to be able to have a surrogate, she was shocked when they explained that is the mother's life was in danger she would have to abort the baby. The Kardashian said it's she allowed to do that it's my baby.

Wow @Sickoffamilydrama

I've never watched anything related to the Kardashians either. But she isn't alone in the view that the choice should be hers.

In this podcast the (surrogate) mother suffered a life threatening pulmonary embolism as a result of the fertility drugs she had to take and she literally had to explain to the commissioning father (a single man) that if she died he wouldn't get a baby.

Which KK also apparently hadn't thought of.

How can people be so stupid, as well as entitled and heartless and ignorant?

But they're all going to be wonderful loving parents if a desperately needed baby.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000467220094

If the law changes in the UK to grant commissioning parents legal parenthood at birth we will see much more aggressively asserted ownership of the baby before birth causing conflict between surrogate mothers and commissioning parents with the NHS mediating, particularly in situations such as the one I have just referenced where the health of the surrogate mother is at risk and the health of the baby will be impacted.

@NotBadConsidering What if the surrogate doesn’t consider herself to be the mother of the baby though. It is still wrong then to refer to the intended parents as the mother and father?

I would think that most of those people struggle when they find out because they’ve been lied to, which is not the same thing. Yes, it does strike me as uneven. I’m not condoning surrogacy (I couldn’t do it) but I’m not as black and white opposed to it as lots of others on here. Plus I would think that part of the reason a judge has to agree to it is because of the significance/impact on the mother of placing a baby for adoption and taking it from her against her will. If a surrogate is entirely happy with her decision and it’s her wish for the child to be placed with the intended parents then that’s far less of an issue.

What if the surrogate doesn’t consider herself to be the mother of the baby though. It is still wrong then to refer to the intended parents as the mother and father?

It doesn’t matter, she is legally. And biologically too; apart from the chromosomes, every single cell formed is built from the material supplied by the woman’s body.

If a surrogate is entirely happy with her decision and it’s her wish for the child to be placed with the intended parents then that’s far less of an issue.

Less of an issue for whom? For the mother, yes. But not for the baby. Judges make decisions about the welfare of the baby, not the willingness of the mother. It has to be the worst of the worst for the baby for a judge to rule removing the baby is in the baby’s best interests. A baby is not removed by a court order because it is best for the mother.

What if the surrogate doesn’t consider herself to be the mother of the baby though.

It doesn't really matter what someone considered themselves to be in their own internal thought processes when it comes to definitions in law.

The act of being pregnant and giving birth makes her a mother, if she thinks she's an oven it doesn't make her one. A human is not a kitchen appliance.

@FannyCann

If the law changes in the UK to grant commissioning parents legal parenthood at birth we will see much more aggressively asserted ownership of the baby before birth causing conflict between surrogate mothers and commissioning parents with the NHS mediating, particularly in situations such as the one I have just referenced where the health of the surrogate mother is at risk and the health of the baby will be impacted.

Yes I can see that happening people will push for women to have to seek permission to abort.

I always wonder about the Kardashians I don't know that much about them except lots of surrogate kids, they all look the model if health (know that's no indication for the ability to conceive and carry children) but surely all of them can't have fertility or pregnancy related problems?
In which case are they using other women's bodies so there's aren't changed by pregnancy.

Either way it's sad for both sides the surrogate's body is a commodity & the Kardashians bodies are commodities that they can't risk damaging.

'My body my choice' only ever seems to be relevant when it's a woman giving up her body to make someone else happy. Have you ever heard it used in relation to men doing a similar thing?

Why do people who trot out 'what about my body my choice' think that selling your organs is illegal?

@Hasselhoffsheadband

'My body my choice' only ever seems to be relevant when it's a woman giving up her body to make someone else happy. Have you ever heard it used in relation to men doing a similar thing?

Why do people who trot out 'what about my body my choice' think that selling your organs is illegal?

Yeah I agree. Imagine if sperm donation was life threatening...I bet it would be banned pretty sharpish. I also bet that if only women had organs to sell, it would be legalised and lauded as a wonderful, selfless act and we'd be told to be kind

Regardless of genetics the newborn recognises the woman whose body they have grown in. Removing the baby causes lifelong trauma.

It blows my mind that people can understand that puppies and kittens need to stay with their mother for at least 8 weeks buy can argue that babies can be sold and removed at birth from the only mother they have ever known

@Linguini

What would you say to someone who has adopted a baby?

I would say that adoption is not surrogacy.

HTH.

But it wouldn’t be in the baby’s best interest to force it to stay with the surrogate mother if she had no desire to raise the child. Surely it’s in the best interest for the baby in those circumstances to be adopted by the couple who really want it and have spent 9 month or more preparing for it.

I’m not saying the mother should be forced to keep the baby. I’m pointing out that the trauma of removing a baby from its mother - the woman who gave birth to the baby - is considered in all other circumstances - except surrogacy. It’s considered so serious that to do it permanently it requires a judge to authorise it - except in surrogacy. A situation is being deliberately created where circumstances otherwise deemed serious enough to involve the Family Court are frivolously dismissed.

The best thing to do would be not to create such circumstances and pretend they aren’t as serious as the other comparable situations.

@whataboutlove

I am in Ireland. Not a week goes by when there isn't a sad story of infertility in the newspaper that ends with a happy couple and a cute baby through surrogacy. It is a massive campaign to normalise it. Couples complain then about the legal situation they have created for these children because there is no legislation for surrogacy in Ireland. Yet they entered into these arrangements knowing this.

At the same time there has been huge national discussion about mother and baby homes and the forced removal and adoption of children in the past. And the need now for those children to know their past and the importance of identity. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

There will be a reckoning in about 30 years. Another tribunal and wondering how we let this happen.

Thank you for highlighting this, I have now listened to or read or watched at least 15 media items about surrogacy in Ireland in the last year or so and not one has even hinted at the fact that there even might be some ethical issues surrounding this. In fact it is positively promoted. As you say, the hypocrisy given our history of mistreatment of mothers and children is breathtaking. I guess so long as the mothers arent Irish, who cares? I agree completely that people will be wringing their hands about this in decades to come, and about some dubious foreign adoptions too. Meanwhile I do a lot of shouting at the radio. I've learned not to say anything too much otherwise, most people have a complete blind spot when it comes to this subject and someone who has not had fertility problems is generally deemed to have zero right to an opinion on it..

@sometimespeopletakethepiss

What happened to women being able to choose what they do with their bodies? No one campaigns against women wearing what they want to and doing what they want to.

What right do you or anyone have to say this? I think this thread is hypocritical to be honest and judgey AF

Do babies not have rights?

And yes, you're right, I am 'judgy'. I am judgy AF when it comes to the welfare of babies and women being exploited.

It is a massive campaign to normalise it.

This, I find interesting. Who is pushing the shiny, happy, picture of surrogacy? Why?

I also find it interesting that despite the relentless push to present surrogacy as some soft-focus insta-friendly lifestyle option, most women/mothers/people understand very quickly what the issues are.

Obviously giving birth to an additional child had an impact on her body

So how much do you think I should charge to let someone shoot me in the leg? Do you think it should be legal for people to pay others so they can shoot them? Exactly how much damage should it be legal for me to inflict if I pay a person?

but she was very happy about how it all went, and she is now using the money to give her own children opportunities they otherwise wouldn’t have had

Thank god she came out OK. The US has a massive maternal mortality rate for it's wealth, the children could have ended up without a mother instead. I wonder how they felt about it all? If, given the choice they would have preferred their mother not to take the risk, not to get pregnant with all that involves, and to then to see her give the baby away at the end of it. I wonder what that made them think about themselves? I wonder how much counselling they received for it, and who paid for that.

As for the child removed from its birth mother? That is sad yes

Not sad. Damaging - proven time after time. As others have said, we don't even remove puppies at birth, yet human babies? No problem.

Can't buy a kidney, but a whole human (as long as it's a baby) sure! Makes me wonder how many rich people are using genetic selection and surrogacy to grow children ready for when they're older and need a family member to donate a part altruistically. What a happy co-incidence that would be (I note that this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but I've met a couple of fabulously wealthy people, and I absolutely believe at least one of them would do this)

My lovely nephew and his (male) dp are looking into surrogacy at the moment. They are in a long term, very loving relationship and i have no doubt they would make amazing parents. But they would be 100% buying a baby, a baby who will have two lovely fathers, but no mother. They are intelligant men, yet they really seem to think of the surrogate as some sort of oven who just grows the baby without making any impact on it. I can (almost) understand their lack of consideration for the mother, a stranger who they feel will be well rewarded, but they don't seem to have considered the child's feelings at all. With so many adopted people desperately searching for their birth parents, particularly their mother, despite having wonderful, loving adoptive parents, how can they not see the potential for problems in the future?

@Deadringer

My lovely nephew and his (male) dp are looking into surrogacy at the moment. They are in a long term, very loving relationship and i have no doubt they would make amazing parents. But they would be 100% buying a baby, a baby who will have two lovely fathers, but no mother. They are intelligant men, yet they really seem to think of the surrogate as some sort of oven who just grows the baby without making any impact on it. I can (almost) understand their lack of consideration for the mother, a stranger who they feel will be well rewarded, but they don't seem to have considered the child's feelings at all. With so many adopted people desperately searching for their birth parents, particularly their mother, despite having wonderful, loving adoptive parents, how can they not see the potential for problems in the future?

'Lovely men', looking for a woman to exploit and a child to traffic.

They aren't lovely. They are selfish and over privileged.

Some of my 'loveliest' friends are the ones who can't see the problem with surrogacy. They are so busy not being judgemental and wanting everyone to be happy that they can't or won't interrogate what it actually is. I'm afraid being nice and kind doesn't always translate into being smart and questioning. Plus people have an incredible ability to overlook the big picture when something affects them personally or someone they love.

@theleafandnotthetree

Some of my 'loveliest' friends are the ones who can't see the problem with surrogacy. They are so busy not being judgemental and wanting everyone to be happy that they can't or won't interrogate what it actually is. I'm afraid being nice and kind doesn't always translate into being smart and questioning. Plus people have an incredible ability to overlook the big picture when something affects them personally or someone they love.

Absolutely agree. My female friends were absolutely horrified when I said I was against surrogacy. I don't know of it's coincidental that none of them have children yet? It was even implied that my views on surrogacy were homophobic. To make it clear, I'm against ALL surrogacy, the sexuality of the people involved is absolutely irrelevant. However one friend asked me if I was against surrogacy, did that include gay men? I repeatedly stated that I was against ALL surrogacy...she said it may be their only chance to have a baby. Once again, I'm against ALL surrogacy! It was a painful conversation.

Surely it’s in the best interest for the baby in those circumstances to be adopted by the couple who really want it and have spent 9 month or more preparing for it.

Not if the commissioning parents are less than desirable to be parents (see Adam Truong, 'Baby' Gammy), with numerous recent cases of infant deaths in the U.K. press it surprises me that people think that just because they bought a baby they will love the child. We all hope that no one would harm a child but it happens, even in adoption it happens (Elsie Scully Hicks).

The mother has also spent months, more than 9 months, preparing for the child's arrival, with the intention of giving the baby away immediately at birth. This requires her to disassociate from all that is natural and normal in pregnancy. Is it not possible that the implications counselling has an impact, that the mother might not feel how she is expected to feel but that she can't back out now? What happens then?

Surrogacy in the U.K. also completely avoids the adoption process, it is nothing like adoption. The parental order process has none of the detailed background checks, the legal process is entirely different. Commissioning parents are not adopting, they are "building their family through surrogacy" or some such fluffy language that is meant to disguise what they are actually doing.

@comedycook, I have had those exact conversations. Am not sure whether to keep having them in the hope of raising awareness or give up. As you say, it's me that looks like the bad guy at the end of them! Yeah, what a cow worrying about vilnerable women and the needs and rights of babies....

However one friend asked me if I was against surrogacy, did that include gay men? I repeatedly stated that I was against ALL surrogacy...she said it may be their only chance to have a baby.

I never understand this argument. So what if it is their only chance? Why is it a woman's "responsability" to fullfil this desire?