What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

@RVN123

" You are not entitled to a single sex space, nor are you breaking the law if you enter a space designated for the opposite sex. Breaking the policy of the company creating it maybe, but not the law"

And there you have it people of the Sex and Gender board.
What more is there to say?

This is the agenda.
This has been agenda from post one.
This is the agenda of all men who want to enter women's spaces and the "be kind" women who support them.

That’s not an agenda, that’s simply a statement of fact. If you have evidence that contradicts it, feel free to say so

I am a lurker. I am neither confident nor knowledgeable enough to post, but I wanted to thank the amazing women who've posted here - I've certainly been enlightened and inspired by this thread.

OP, you are sounding a bit desperate now.

You know this, but I will explain it anyway...

We are in a mess because someone (we all know who) took it upon themselves to 'get ahead of the law' and have given plenty of organisations and services the idea that they can't enforce single sex provisions in any event. That is false.

Once the law is clarified and this has been put right, there will be no reason for those organisations and services not to do so. In fact, it could be argued that in not doing so, they would be discriminating against at least one, but often two other protected characteristics.

That’s not an agenda, that’s simply a statement of fact. If you have evidence that contradicts it, feel free to say so

Why are you so keen for males to be allowed in female spaces?

You are not entitled to a single sex space
Who is the "you" here? Are you really stating that there are no situations, no locations etc where even one single person is entitled to a space that contains only people of one sex?

@bishophaha

You are not entitled to a single sex space Who is the "you" here? Are you really stating that there are no situations, no locations etc where even one single person is entitled to a space that contains only people of one sex?

Not by law in the UK, unless someone can share some other piece of legislation I’m unaware of that contradicts this

So at least the howwww do we know what a woman is, it's soooo difficult" nonsense is over. True colours.

Is this you?

Can we not in good faith just expect males however they identify to stay out of spaces meant for the comfort, safety and privacy of female people? Do we need to "enforce" or have laws banning them?

I understand the argument for single sex spaces,

Perhaps you could elaborate on your understanding of this argument, OP?

That’s not an agenda, that’s simply a statement of fact. If you have evidence that contradicts it, feel free to say so
If you do not provide single sex spaces and a Muslim woman cannot access the service as a result, you are indirectly discriminating on the grounds of religion.

If you do not provide single sex spaces and a woman suffering from PTSD following male violence cannot access the service as a result, you are indirectly discriminating on the grounds of disability.

Obviously there is a need for this to be used proportionately (which requests for single-sex spaces are reasonable), but it is clear that single sex spaces should be available to those accessing (for example) rape crisis services.

Incarcerating women with male-born sex offenders risks being in breach of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

By the way, we shouldn't need a law to keep men out of the women's toilets (just like we shouldn't need labels warning "this food is hot when heated"). Society managed for millennia with only unwritten custom and practice keeping almost all men from places they are not wanted. It worked very well.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Can we not in good faith just expect males however they identify to stay out of spaces meant for the comfort, safety and privacy of female people? Do we need to "enforce" or have laws banning them?

Well, quite.

It is all very well to say that it is not against the law to enter an opposite sex, single sex space. But why would you? What would be the purpose of a man entering a woman's single sex space or vice versa, knowing that your presence would make the people for whom the space had been provided uncomfortable? (Other than sheer, bloody minded entitlement 'no one tells me what to do!!')

It's true that there's been few if any direct laws about certain spaces being single-sex.

Because societal convention used to be sufficient.

I recall hearing about the "bathroom bills" in the US and wondering what the point was - I'm not wondering any longer. Clearly some men believe they can do whatever they want.

There is something of a contrast here though - a lot of TRAs are all "all cops are bastards" and rant about "carceral feminism". Apparently societal conventions and restorative justice are supposed to be the in thing and we're not supposed to need actual laws and prosecutions.

But apparently if there aren't laws and prosecutions, they're just going to do what they want. Interesting.

Anyway, establishments can certainly throw you out if you don't obey their rules - and that could include entering a single-sex space if you shouldn't. The EA explicitly permits business and organisations to have such rules. If you then refused to leave, you would be trespassing, or similar, and there are laws to cover that.

I was talking to my 9y DS the other day, and asked him why he thought there were boys and girls toilets. He said: Privacy?

Yet OP seems to struggle

This mitigates the concerns

I believe your 'concerns' were to gas light people into believing that males accessing female single sex spaces are not enforcable and not an issue anyway.

I doubt you have achieved what you think you have achieved though.

You have shown readers just how the tactics work. And I can assure you that women reading this will still be able to tell who is male and who is female entering the single sex space.

And those who are distressed about male presence, or have a religious requirement that males are not there, or even any female who is uncomfortable with a male there will react as they probably have always reacted.

And you know what, if YOU are that male entering those spaces under the impression that you are 'entitled' to be there and that you believe no one can pick you as male, then that shows everything about you. If you are proud of doing that, that is on you. If you are proud to feel you got one over the women who you feel are ignorant and hateful. Boast away as loudly as you can. Females will know the kind of male you are and act accordingly.

"Can we not in good faith just expect males however they identify to stay out of spaces"
"What would be the purpose of a man entering a woman's single sex space or vice versa"

Because I don't identify as a "man" or a "male", and I do not see how segregation itself is anything but another aspect of societal gender norms imposed on a "sex-based" basis, to which I refuse to conform.

My understanding is that it works both ways. It maybe lawful for a person to enter a space designated for the opposite sex but it is not unlawful to prevent them from doing this (as per the exceptions).

@lifeissweet

Is this you?

Too sweet!!!

Caught up now.

A few pages back there was a discussion about death, and OP acknowledged that doctors did tests, where necessary, to identify who was dead.

OP, doctors also do tests to identify what sex people are, and happily for you, they will have written it on your birth certificate - more specifically the one written at birth, as some countries have introduced silly laws that allow people to falsify the sex that was observed and recorded previously.

If, as I suspect, yours has the letter M on it, then you are not welcome in women’s spaces. You can argue, if you wish, that you wouldn’t be breaking the law to do so, and you can also argue that women can’t stop you. You would be correct in both. However regardless of laws and the inability of women to stop you being a despicable human being, the fact remains that if you are male and invade women’s spaces, despite knowing you will distress them, then that is what you are.

So caught up on the thread. Needed several Lucozafe stops to get through.

But yes, what's most surprising is OP waited as long as they did to drop the thick as act

hands out cake and tea. Actually, gin. Cake and gin to Vipers putting time in to show lurkers how this always pans out

Lucozade, obv.

@RainbowBridge67

"Because I don't identify as a "man" or a "male", and I do not see how segregation itself is anything but another aspect of societal gender norms imposed on a "sex-based" basis, to which I refuse to conform."

You honestly see no other purpose for single sex spaces other than societal norms?

Even though there are multiple examples just in this one thread of people giving valid reasons why women are uncomfortable with having men there. That's just in this thread, there have been many many discussions on a variety of different platforms where this has been made clear.

Just to summarise a few for you.

A woman or girl who has been repeatedly beaten by a man and has had to abandon everything she owns to flee to a hostel should be able to specify a female only space. It is reasonable that men, any men would make her feel uncomfortable.

A woman or girl who has been sexually attacked/raped by a man should be able to attend a rape survivors support group without having any men present.

A woman or girl should be able to get changed in a female changing room, confident in the knowledge that no men will see her naked body without her consent

A woman or girl requiring intimate health care should be able to specify that that care is delivered by another woman or girl

A woman or girl who is devoted to a religion that requires that to maintain modesty in front of men should not be forced to choose to either not do an activity or unwillingly break that modesty because a man has decided their feeling are more important.

What kind of person would deliberately do something to cause other people pain, humiliation or distress?

when the societal norm is for men to respect women , treat them as men , pay them as men, listen to them as men , no sexual abuse ( even the mildest kind) then we can rethink single sex spaces

Until then ? I don't think so

@RainbowBridge67

"Can we not in good faith just expect males however they identify to stay out of spaces" "What would be the purpose of a man entering a woman's single sex space or vice versa"

Because I don't identify as a "man" or a "male", and I do not see how segregation itself is anything but another aspect of societal gender norms imposed on a "sex-based" basis, to which I refuse to conform.

Why should women care about the feeling in your head?

There are social rules for a reason. Why stop at gender?
It is generally considered impolite to rape or murder people.
If I just decide I don't want to "conform" to social laws then I can do what the hell I like, behave how I like without fear of repercussions.

Sometimes rules are there for a reason.

Again - why should anyone give a damn about your inner beliefs and why should those inner beliefs trump the very real concerns of women who you are imposing yourself upon.

@Wombat2WombatCombat

Negative experience with individuals belonging to a group do not justify wholesale discrimination against the entire group.

There are straight women who had bad experiences with lesbians, but it would be out of line for them to demand a safe space from lesbians.

Likewise, a white woman having a bad experience with a black person is no argument for racial segregation.

I am simply fundamentally opposed to discrimination on the basis of immutable characteristics. For some reason, trans people are the only minority group expected to put up with such discrimination.