What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

[quote IamAporcupine]@Wombat2WombatCombat - do you know your biological sex? and if so, how?[/quote]
Surely this will make the penny drop?

I called this (and answered it) several pages ago.

I have, in the meantime, had an argument on Twitter with another clown who thinks that EHRC clarifying the Equality Act around single sex spaces, means we will have genital inspectors on the door of every toilet, so it isn't only this OP with weird a twisted ideas of how the world works.

To repeat: it's a social contract based on everyone knowing the rules and peer disapproval when rules are transgressed. That's it. It needs to be ok for women to say 'hey, mate. This is the ladies. Hop it'. That's it.

Prisons can ask for birth certificates, refuges can use their eyes and make a decision. Again, it needs to be ok and legal for them to say 'hey, dude, this place is for women.'

That's it!

And that's why you were asking for all this time.

@Hasselhoffsheadband

I really hope the lurkers are reading this thread.

Of course the way to completely destroy the single sex spaces that women have carved out for themselves, is to claim that there is no way of knowing who is what sex and that therefore the idea of 'single sex' is just invalid.

Make no mistake, this is just misogyny in action that we are seeing right here.

Worth repeating.

And the content is being fed into Twitter.

OP acting in bad faith - gosh, who'd have thought it?

I'm willing to bet that the OP has never been inside a female only space.

And the way we enforce it, OP, is by removing the sense of entitlement that some men have. Through things like this thread, advice from the EHRC, across social and mainstream media and women raising the issue everywhere they go.

Service providers need to be told in no uncertain terms that women find this unacceptable.

The answer is no.

Called it Twitter Fodder very shortly after the thread started.

Why are we all so perceptive?
Call it women's "Sixth Sense.

"I see TRA people......................"

@HalfShrunkMoreToGo

Genuine question *@Wombat2WombatCombat* but do you have problems with reading comprehension?

That link that I provided, the one where you say it doesn't say anything about single sex spaces gives these as examples of things you are allowed to do

Examples
738.
These exceptions would allow:
• a cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;
• a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;
• a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;
• separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;
• separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;
• a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

Now granted, it doesn't list every single type of space that exists in reality and tell you if that can or can't be single sex but it is very clear that there is the allowed legal right to have spaces/rooms/facilities that are for just men or just women.

Your next bit about the prohibition of those of a different sex entering a single sex space. If a space is designated for one group of people only then every other group is prohibited, that's what the law is saying. Are you expecting a paragraph to exist within the legislation that says for example.

"You are allowed to make toilets single sex and if you do make them single sex then that means that only that single sex, not the other sex is allowed to use them and you can enforce that."

Because that would be ridiculous. Saying that you are permitted to make a space single sex, is enough, you don't need the rest of the sentence.

To give an example. If I see a 'no smoking' sign on the wall I know that that means I am not allowed to smoke in that space. They don't need a sign next to it that says 'this means you are not allowed to smoke, by smoke we mean cigarettes or cigars, oh and if you do smoke here then you'll get in trouble because you're not allowed to, trouble may come in the form of being asked to leave, or fined, or the police called'. There is no test before entering that space to ensure that you understand you're not allowed to smoke or to test if you have a nicotine habit. You are just told in this space you can't smoke.

When it comes to toilets, the sign denoting it as a womens toilet means it is a space designated for women. Anyone who is not a woman should therefore not be using it because they are not women.

This really isn't hard, or confusing and for you to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

That’s fine, except the legislation you posted has nothing to do with the rights of individuals and service users. It instead relates to the rights of providers to segregate. You are permitted to create a single space if it’s a proportionate measure to achieve a legitimate aim. You are not entitled to a single sex space, nor are you breaking the law if you enter a space designated for the opposite sex. Breaking the policy of the company creating it maybe, but not the law

Bloody hell, some one has gone to a lot of trouble to try and gaslight people on here.

Adams apple
Very narrow hips
Stride/walk
Shoulder width.
Jaw line

I don't need to pour over biology books to try and figure out why men and women are different.

I can see they are different. Women are not bloody idiots regardless what men think

pore*

I'm thinking of hiring out my dog as a toilet attendant. She can tell the difference between a man and a woman. If she barks you are a man and don't get to go in.

My dog is fairly stupid but even she knows what a woman is.

" You are not entitled to a single sex space, nor are you breaking the law if you enter a space designated for the opposite sex. Breaking the policy of the company creating it maybe, but not the law"

And there you have it people of the Sex and Gender board.
What more is there to say?

This is the agenda.
This has been agenda from post one.
This is the agenda of all men who want to enter women's spaces and the "be kind" women who support them.

@RVN123

" You are not entitled to a single sex space, nor are you breaking the law if you enter a space designated for the opposite sex. Breaking the policy of the company creating it maybe, but not the law"

And there you have it people of the Sex and Gender board.
What more is there to say?

This is the agenda.
This has been agenda from post one.
This is the agenda of all men who want to enter women's spaces and the "be kind" women who support them.

Agree.

@RVN123

" You are not entitled to a single sex space, nor are you breaking the law if you enter a space designated for the opposite sex. Breaking the policy of the company creating it maybe, but not the law"

And there you have it people of the Sex and Gender board.
What more is there to say?

This is the agenda.
This has been agenda from post one.
This is the agenda of all men who want to enter women's spaces and the "be kind" women who support them.

Absolutely.

Dear lurkers,

Here endeth the lesson.

@SignOnTheWindow

Brilliant. This is so clearly and concisely expressed, TheCurrywurst. I may have to bookmark it for future use, if that's OK with you!

Apologies, just catching up. Please feel free to share anything!

A woman is an adult human who does not have a Y chromosome, but does have 2 XX chromosomes, breasts and a vagina.

You are not entitled to a single sex space, nor are you breaking the law if you enter a space designated for the opposite sex

Why didnt you just your stall out from the beginning? You have not done yourself or TRA any favours with this bullshit gaslighting thread.

Deary me. Embarrassing that you were predicable

Sorry that post was to @SignOnTheWindow since it was about 15 pages ago…

My reasoning is that I had assumed that some way of determining sex was either already in place or needed to be put in place, and if it wasn’t, there would be massive problems with regards to sex segregation.

Are you having trouble reading the replies as the question of how we determine which sex someone is has been answered multiple times. Basically, you can see when you look at someone. It's extremely rare not to be able to tell and 'extremely rare' instances do not mean you throw out the whole idea.

However, by the sounds of it, there is no direct provision or enforcement of single sex spaces, nor does it seem to be implied that there should be.

This is not a discussion about single sex spaces is it? But if it were then yes there should be. There is plenty of information around about why should you care to look at it. Don't conflate provision with enforcement and don't conflate all single sex spaces as the same.

Given that this has been in place and will continue to be in place without problems as you guys say for ages, then presumably all the fears around the loss of single sex spaces and everything are unfounded, as like you guys say, we have managed all of this fine without needing to directly safeguard female for hundreds of years.

God you are a nasty piece of work. If I walk into a toilet and find a man in the ladies, I will get the hell away from there. Single sex spaces are not some kind of utopia where no crime ever happens but that does not mean that they do not offer a significant degree of protection. Why do you think we even need them if you think there is no sensible differentiation between men and women? Is it just so men can get off on pushing women's boundaries then? All irrelevant though as there IS a way of telling who is a man and who is a woman as you have repeatedly told.

This mitigates the concerns I had to begin with about the need and arguments for single sex spaces that I mentioned in my first post, and also means it doesn’t really matter about the lack of a explicit, direct definition of male or female as we won’t need to enforce anything with it anyway You've also been told the definition of male and female repeatedly and concluding that you haven't just because it doesn't suit your agenda does not mean that there is not a explicit and direct definition.

There is a word for the sort of men who want to force themselves into womens areas. In the interests of not being deleted, I'm not saying the word.... but I'm sure Wombat is well aware of it, as are we all!

I'm amused that wombat asked a question, got a clear answer and then pretended that he hadn't in order to come up with a convoluted reason why he should just be able to do what he wants anyway. It's an adolescent strategy but sadly, as he's a man, it carries weight anyway (though sexism of course can't be true as no one knows who is a man anyway).

Those people who constantly post screenshots from here on Twitter (but never the actual link to the thread.....) - do you think they actually ever post on here, or do they just spend all their time lurking, screenshotting and reporting?

This determination to get men into toilets and changing rooms with women and girls is just plain sinister. Anyone with half a brain can see it.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz - yes, youvegottenminuteslynn has confirmed it

You are not entitled to a single sex space, nor are you breaking the law if you enter a space designated for the opposite sex

And there you have it.

Job done.

I think this is that "radicalised by Mumsnet" thing isn't it.

It's not the radfems on Mumsnet doing the radicalising...

@Datun

You are not entitled to a single sex space, nor are you breaking the law if you enter a space designated for the opposite sex

And there you have it.

Job done.

Pretty much what I thought.