What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

I didn’t think you were rude.

It just seems odd that you’re flummoxed over what the words man and woman mean, yet managed to google SRY gene crossover, which is a favourite argument of certain groups of people claiming that some men are women.

It is not complex at all. There are men, there are women. That is it.

@MordenLarch

Need to see where?

What I mean is how does the ‘designed to produce certain gametes’ translate into exact hormones/organs/genetics etc? Sorry if that wasn’t clear

Why do you find it complicated OP?

@MordenLarch

A woman is an adult human female whose body is designed to produce large immobile gametes, as opposed to men who are designed to produce small mobile gametes - this is true whether or not those biological functions work.

There is no single criterion, however identifying the sex of almost everyone on the planet was never an issue, or even argued about, until men started to claim they were women and demand access to women’s rights and all women’s spaces.

For what it’s worth, MordenLarch gives the correct answer, that it is based around gametes. The method most commonly used to observe that is to use anatomical sex as a proxy for that, which is almost invariably accurate, with a very low failure rate. Those individuals for whom sex is not immediately clear from observation nowadays usually have their sex determined by other means.

If you are trying to argue that because there is no single trait that is reliable for 100% of humans, then sex doesn’t really exist or can’t be defined, I have a Twitter thread for you which explains why that is not the case: There can be various ways of differentiating biological groups and there doesn’t have to be one singular defining feature in order to be a coherent group.

twitter.com/swipewright/status/1124406797916409856?s=21

As to how we can tell, in order to police this, the short answer is we often can’t. Society provides single sex spaces and they mostly work on a trust system. In a decent society, with high expectations of its citizens, that system works well. No decent man wants to enter spaces where they know they will cause distress and women feel able to call those males out who are not decent. In a society where men are making strenuous efforts to break down those rules, more men will feel it’s acceptable to cross that societal line, and fewer women will feel able to object to those who do.

Self-ID is a disaster for women as it encourages men to believe they have the right to break those boundaries and that even if they know they don’t really have the right, they know that negative consequences for their actions are unlikely.

@Warmduscher

I didn’t think you were rude.

It just seems odd that you’re flummoxed over what the words man and woman mean, yet managed to google SRY gene crossover, which is a favourite argument of certain groups of people claiming that some men are women.

I understand in a broad sense, but since I’ve learnt about all of those characteristics, I’m unsure as to how exactly we’ve been drawing the line?

it’s just that there’s a lot if complexity with this sort of thing

Yeah that's what they want you to think. In fact it's not complex at all - everyone in this thread has managed a straightforward easy to understand definition in a couple of short sentences.

When Julian Clary was asked if he and his husband would have children, he replied 'no because I don't have a womb'.

I think that just about sums it up really

Why do you need to know, OP?

Don’t you think that if humans had all found it as perplexing as you clearly do, that we would have died out long ago as no-one would know which sex to mate with?

@Laburnam

When said baby pops out of the womb and the midwife declares boy or girl by looking at their bits

This is how we’ve been drawing the line OP.

HTH

Females, XX or XO, males XY, XXY, XYY etc
Approximately 1/40 000 individuals will fail to fit those categories, are you genuinely and seriously suggesting everything should be redefined for that 0.0025% of humans?

since I’ve learnt about all of those characteristics, I’m unsure as to how exactly we’ve been drawing the line?

You know how we’ve been drawing the line. It happened to you at birth, and likely to every single person you know. You were born and a competent adult identified your sex, which was recorded on your birth certificate.

You were then raised in a society which accepted that was a perfectly reasonable system by which we could segregate people into two groups.

Still confused?

Don’t believe you if you say yes,

I keep seeing posts on FB that are shared by a couple of friends/acquaintances who are keen to bend over backward to be tolerant and kind, without really thinking much about it. Their latest thing (and I've seen several posts about it lately, so it must be from some particular site) is that you can't define biological sex, therefore sex isn't simple, therefore you can't just talk about biological sex, therefore because it's not simple and clear-cut, you can't use it as an effective category for gatekeeping or identifying anyone.

They use the examples of crossing over, SRY being on the X-chromosome, various other DSDs to show that you can't just use chromosomes to determine sex, you can't just use hormones, you can't just use presence of SRY genes (because might not be active), you can't just use external characteristics, you can't use internal organs, none of these things on its own absolutely 100% works, and therefore they conclude that there is no definitive test.

Now I know this argument doesn't stand up. I have pointed out in very polite and neutral times that it doesn't really work as an explanation, because the sorts of cases they are talking about are extreme edge cases, and that in the vast vast vast majority of people, all those things do line up exactly as expected. I've also suggested that actually, it makes no difference anyway, as there is no evidence that any of the people who feel they are a different sex have any higher rate of DSDs or endocrine disorders, so any of those edge cases are utterly irrelevant to that issue, and that people with DSDs have asked not to be used as examples in that way.

But still these memes persist as a 'gotcha', a way of proving that sex can't be defined precisely, and therefore that it's not useful as a category, and I find it frustrating, because it's hard to argue against the individual points. It is true that you can be XX male with an SRY gene. Or have an inactive SRY gene with various sets of chromosomes. You can have cases with different chromosome patterns and different hormonal presentations because of other genetic differences. And so forth. Individually each statement is true, but it simply doesn't prove what the people making them think it proves. At the same time, it's frustrating as there is no way to answer back to the specific claims.

But the people I know posting these particular memes are doing so in good faith, thinking that they are understanding the issue better now, that sex isn't a simply defined category etc. They are genuinely wanting to be inclusive and kind; they're not activisits trying to increase the rights of one group over another (though they might be inadvertantly doing this in ther attempts to be kind). So it's hard to find any way to present an opposite point of view to them, because it immediately sounds unkind and they would react to that.

it’s just that there’s a lot if complexity with this sort of thing

And yet by some miracle before humans even knew what organs, hormones and genes were we managed to keep the species going. It's almost as if you can tell who produces ova and who produces sperm just by looking at people, even if you don't even know what sperm and ova are.

👏👏👏👏👏

@Warmduscher

Why do you need to know, OP?

Don’t you think that if humans had all found it as perplexing as you clearly do, that we would have died out long ago as no-one would know which sex to mate with?

I must remember this response! You win the internet! 🤣

I saw a post the other day that referred to “people who have oestrogen based endocrine systems” and “people who have testosterone based endocrine systems”. It was about how many alcohol units you can drink.

Read Kathleen Stock's book, she explains the three main biological classifications. Since we are talking biology there are a tiny number of cases that are a bit leaky across the two sexes by some but not all the classification methods. However, this does not mean that there aren't two sexes any more than the existence of ligers means species don't exist.

Also, the genetic classification is not 'XX', it's the absence of a Y chromosome, no-one thinks women with Turner's syndrome or Triple X syndrome aren't women.

And finally, there is no evidence that transgender individuals are more likely than the general population to have an disorder of sexual development so DSDs are irrelevant to any discussion.

All those people who supposedly struggle to identify sex somehow cease to have any difficulty when they want someone to grow a baby for them to buy.

So, what do you think of the answers so far, OP?

And just as an aside, no one is trying to “enforce” single sex spaces. Women are trying to retain the ones we already have, despite concerted efforts by certain groups of people to take them away from us, to give to men who feel that if they don’t like being a man, they must be a woman.

No thank you.

Op:

Gametes are an organism's reproductive cells. They are also referred to as sex cells. Female gametes are called ova or egg cells, and male gametes are called sperm.

So small mobile gametes = sperm

Big immobile gametes =egg

But I'm sure if you can Google SRY syndrome then you know all this.

I recommend Kathleen Stock's book, Material Girls. It contains excellent clear descriptions.

@TheCurrywurstPrion

*There is no single criterion, however identifying the sex of almost everyone on the planet was never an issue, or even argued about, until men started to claim they were women and demand access to women’s rights and all women’s spaces.

For what it’s worth, MordenLarch gives the correct answer, that it is based around gametes. The method most commonly used to observe that is to use anatomical sex as a proxy for that, which is almost invariably accurate, with a very low failure rate. Those individuals for whom sex is not immediately clear from observation nowadays usually have their sex determined by other means.

If you are trying to argue that because there is no single trait that is reliable for 100% of humans, then sex doesn’t really exist or can’t be defined, I have a Twitter thread for you which explains why that is not the case: There can be various ways of differentiating biological groups and there doesn’t have to be one singular defining feature in order to be a coherent group.

twitter.com/swipewright/status/1124406797916409856?s=21

As to how we can tell, in order to police this, the short answer is we often can’t. Society provides single sex spaces and they mostly work on a trust system. In a decent society, with high expectations of its citizens, that system works well. No decent man wants to enter spaces where they know they will cause distress and women feel able to call those males out who are not decent. In a society where men are making strenuous efforts to break down those rules, more men will feel it’s acceptable to cross that societal line, and fewer women will feel able to object to those who do.

Self-ID is a disaster for women as it encourages men to believe they have the right to break those boundaries and that even if they know they don’t really have the right, they know that negative consequences for their actions are unlikely.*

This is an excellent explanation and I thought it worth repeating in case anyone else is "confused" or finds it "complex".

WallaceinAnderland

Adult human female/Adult human male seems to cover it. What's the problem?

What I’m asking is what exactly is an adult human male/female in raw biological terms? How exactly do you distinguish?

Which word don't you understand. Adult, human or female/male?

Before I respond to anything individually, I just want to apologise if I have caused anyone any offence. I am aware of the importance of single sex spaces, but recently I have learnt about all of the various intersex conditions, and wanted to know how they fit into everything. Sorry again if it seemed like something else