What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

@Barbarantia

If it is impossible to test for an individual’s sex, as you seem to be implying, then how is it possible to enforce a single sex space? I know men are supposed to not go in there, but surely the fact you feel they are needed suggest that some will want to regardless, so you need a way to prevent it? *@Wombat2WombatCombat*

Hein? what? What words are you adding to my posts?
The fact I feel what about what?
The I feel that tests are needed?

For ALL THE LURKERS, if you had any doubt, any at all that this whole thread was based on gaslighting, please take note of this sleight of hand.

The poster asks for visible biological traits that categorise women and gives them permission to boot men out of toilets.
and on being told that there should be no tests but men should police themselves then switches it round to say I asked for tests for men to not gain entrance to women's toilets.

and then you make it out as if i said that testing was impossible.
I said no such thing. I implied no such thing.

My message is clear:
There are no hoops to jump through to win the prize of access to women and girls. we are not things you win at the end of a match.
it doesn't matter how accurate your test is and your elation at fooling the machine!
Women and girls are not things!

you are deceitful.
and the worst type of deceit is when you believe your own lies.

you are so far up shits creek, you've forgotten what water actually looks like.

Apologies, sounds like I have misinterpreted you. What I thought that you were saying was that men entering women’s spaces was bad, and that testing women to prevent them from doing that was also bad and unfair to the women, so doesn’t and shouldn’t happen. However, you say that men should police themselves, which while arguably a reasonable demand, presumably isn’t happening at the moment or else there wouldn’t be any concern about the sanctity of same sex spaces - hence my point querying how you intend to enforce it if you feel testing is wrong. Have I misunderstood your point, and if so, in what way?

Dr Hilton talks about variations at about 20 minutes in.

If no test is needed, does this fear everyone has around people pretending to be trans going into women’s toilets is unfounded, either on that it won’t happen or that it won’t be a problem if it does? If so then that’s fantastic, as it means there isn’t a problem for anyone - trans, ‘real’ or otherwise

And there it is.

Plain as day.

It is good for the readers to see the progression. To be fair, it took 25 pages. But we all saw the agenda from OP.

My reasoning is that I had assumed that some way of determining sex was either already in place or needed to be put in place

Please stop lying. You assumed no such thing.

I really hope the lurkers are reading this thread.

Of course the way to completely destroy the single sex spaces that women have carved out for themselves, is to claim that there is no way of knowing who is what sex and that therefore the idea of 'single sex' is just invalid.

Make no mistake, this is just misogyny in action that we are seeing right here.

you are deceitful.
and the worst type of deceit is when you believe your own lies.

yep

If no test is needed, does this fear everyone has around people pretending to be trans going into women’s toilets is unfounded, either on that it won’t happen or that it won’t be a problem if it does? If so then that’s fantastic, as it means there isn’t a problem for anyone - trans, ‘real’ or otherwise

Well firstly, it has happened and yes it was a problem obviously and, secondly, your reasoning demonstrates exactly why women keep saying 'this is not just about toilets'.

So if it took 26 pages for your big reveal and that's it then I'm afraid you are a disappointment.

Oh, the lurkers will be reading, I can assure you of that. Look at how many there are, and these are just ones with accounts. Mumsnet is available to read for people without accounts.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4433483-Thank-You-from-the-Lurkers

Thank you @Wombat2WombatCombat for doing our work for us.

then presumably all the fears around the loss of single sex spaces and everything are unfounded, as like you guys say, we have managed all of this fine without needing to directly safeguard female for hundreds of years

The reason we have managed fine for hundreds of years is because we can all recognise a man when they are in a woman's space, and can collectively tell them to get out. Men being able to claim that they're a woman and insist that they are allowed to be in women's spaces as a result means that method is no longer one we can use, because even though we can still recognise them to be a man, if rules say that its ok for them to be in a woman's space anyway then there's nothing we can do about it, regardless of how uncomfortable it makes us feel. Its always astonishing to me how many men who claim to believe themselves to be women, give zero shits about how they make 'other' women feel, as long as they get to reinforce their own 'identity'.

Many thanks Wombat2WombatCombat for emboldening me to call out any male I see in a women's toilet/changing room in future. Previously I would have just avoided eye contact and hurried out, but for the sake of shyer women and teenage girls I will speak up.

Oh, the lurkers will be reading, I can assure you of that.

We certainly are.

The narcissistic supply this person is getting from the women of FWR is off the charts

Genuine question @Wombat2WombatCombat but do you have problems with reading comprehension?

That link that I provided, the one where you say it doesn't say anything about single sex spaces gives these as examples of things you are allowed to do

Examples
738.
These exceptions would allow:
• a cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;
• a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;
• a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;
• separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;
• separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;
• a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

Now granted, it doesn't list every single type of space that exists in reality and tell you if that can or can't be single sex but it is very clear that there is the allowed legal right to have spaces/rooms/facilities that are for just men or just women.

Your next bit about the prohibition of those of a different sex entering a single sex space. If a space is designated for one group of people only then every other group is prohibited, that's what the law is saying. Are you expecting a paragraph to exist within the legislation that says for example.

"You are allowed to make toilets single sex and if you do make them single sex then that means that only that single sex, not the other sex is allowed to use them and you can enforce that."

Because that would be ridiculous. Saying that you are permitted to make a space single sex, is enough, you don't need the rest of the sentence.

To give an example. If I see a 'no smoking' sign on the wall I know that that means I am not allowed to smoke in that space. They don't need a sign next to it that says 'this means you are not allowed to smoke, by smoke we mean cigarettes or cigars, oh and if you do smoke here then you'll get in trouble because you're not allowed to, trouble may come in the form of being asked to leave, or fined, or the police called'. There is no test before entering that space to ensure that you understand you're not allowed to smoke or to test if you have a nicotine habit. You are just told in this space you can't smoke.

When it comes to toilets, the sign denoting it as a womens toilet means it is a space designated for women. Anyone who is not a woman should therefore not be using it because they are not women.

This really isn't hard, or confusing and for you to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

I will repeat my questions from a few pages ago.

Please define 'nobody', 'issue', 'specifically' and in fact, 'define' in depth and to our satisfaction. And be assured that if you simply refer to the dictionary, or to google we shall swivel to ask for further clarification of the terms you have used in your definition.

Also, 'wombat'. And when does a wombat cease to be a wombat and not a possum or a kangaroo.

Also, 'combat'. When does combat become combat and what is all its iterations so we can be sure you have covered all combat and not left anything out to be undefined.

And please make sure no definitions are circular.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

The narcissistic supply this person is getting from the women of FWR is off the charts

Hence I ignored this thread until now... think about who deserves your time and who doesn't (perhaps because they want to waste it by refusing to engage in good faith)

Like a wee toddler is the OP

Why why why why

Even when told why 🤣🤣🤣🤣🔥

Always end up having to distract them as can’t reason with a toddler

The narcissistic supply this person is getting from the women of FWR is off the charts

Some of us are men. Just throwing that in in the hope it might put them off.

how you intend to enforce it if you feel testing is wrong
@Wombat2WombatCombat

You wombat need to stop putting words in people's mouths
I said nothing about enforcing anything. That was all you.

This a problem created by men. I am now bold enough to say this is a problem for men to tackle. Women's boundaries are clear. We say respect them. Don't make women your toilet police.
Stop asking women to fix men's problems especially when you are asking them to get out of the way, make themselves uncomfortable so men can feel confortable. Sort the men's issues out with the men.

Women are pink and sparkly.

Was that the answer you wanted OP? Do I get a cookie?

OP the XX chromosomes is the biggest clue. The SRY example is a tiny proportion of the population - an outlier. Just as babies born with trisonomies - like Downs, Pataus and Edwards - are outliers. The vast majority of us have 23 pairs of chromosomes (22are the same between men and women). The vast majority of us have the reproductive organs that match our chromosomal type.

As a general rule a woman's born with a uterus, ovaries and eggs, will ovulate, menstruate and potentially be able to carry and give birth to a child.

As a general rule a male has XY chromosomes and is born with a penis and testes.

Did you not do biology at school?
It's biology - not what hair you have, what name you're called, what make up you wear, what clothes you wear, or who you sleep with.

Many women feel that their experiences of menstruation, or pregnancy or trying to get pregnant, of being treated differently from birth in an unequal society has shaped who they are and is part of their identity. They feel that they have had to fight to be heard, to be treated fairly and to have their experience validated.

It's always sad to see a (tedious) demonstration in real time of the refusal to accept the rights of women and girls to boundaries. The right to say no to men who wish to be present when women are undressed, showering, receiving intimate care, sleeping, toileting or otherwise exposed and vulnerable.

@IamAporcupine

sorry to derrail *@youvegottenminuteslynn* - love your username

Me too ... please tell me it's an Alan reference?!

Blardy Nora, you lot are so very patient.

OP had already stated that if DSDs did NOT exist that they would be happy with the chromosomal definition of male XY and female XX.

So they are concerning themselves with the 0.018% of the population who are actually able to determine with the help of their geneticists and doctors what sex they are and to live their lives accordingly.

I'm sure they can manage and they don't need the help of the OP.

We all know they exist. We don't need to interfere in their very private lives and their very private medical histories which quite frankly are nobody else's business.
We don't need to infantilise them.