What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

@Wombat2WombatCombat you have been given a detailed specific definition with a handy reference guide for the variations represented by DSD. It isn't a single sentence, single characteristic definition. Because it's a complex bit of biology. Just because something is complex doesn't mean it is vague, imprecise or inaccurate. It just means that some people might struggle to hold it all in their heads at once and so fail to comprehend it properly.

I am not disputing observable differences in sex, I am inquiring as to what the defined characteristics are that make someone male/female vs the opposite. People have been kind enough to give many broad, subjective definitions, but nothing that nails it down to ‘if you have x you are male, if not you are female’

This was posted earlier in the thread, so your question has already been answered.

Most people are XY with male reproductive system or XX with female reproductive system. The others are in this table helpfully categorised for you into male and female.

People have been kind enough to give many broad, subjective definitions, but nothing that nails it down to ‘if you have x you are male, if not you are female’

If you genuinely believe this to be an accurate description of the thread, you're either not reading all posts or you're being wilfully disingenuous.

I plump with willfully disingenuous

@Giveaschitt

OP, you do know the bit you've read about legal death etc only applies to people who are on life support and classified as having "brain death"? So doesn't actually apply to the classification of death in any other instance.

From what I read, that’s the criteria for brain stem death, which is the basis for all other forms of death. It seems that that is the ultimate way of determining death in the absence of other factors, however if there is a more obvious reason (like someone’s lost all of their blood) then those criteria can be seen as unnecessary. If you have something the contradicts that though please share it

but nothing that nails it down to ‘if you have x you are male, if not you are female’

If you have small gametes you are male
If you have large gametes you are female

And I really really object to your phrasing ‘if you have x you are male, if not you are female as if women & girls are somehow just male but with something missing.

Your Freudian slip is showing bloody trailing on the floor and out the door

@OldCrone

I am not disputing observable differences in sex, I am inquiring as to what the defined characteristics are that make someone male/female vs the opposite. People have been kind enough to give many broad, subjective definitions, but nothing that nails it down to ‘if you have x you are male, if not you are female’

This was posted earlier in the thread, so your question has already been answered.

Most people are XY with male reproductive system or XX with female reproductive system. The others are in this table helpfully categorised for you into male and female.

Thanks for pointing that out - I must have missed it. You wouldn’t happen to know what the criteria are for each choice of male vs female is though do you? The table definitely implies that there is a defined way of distinguishing, however it doesn’t state what it is, and there’s still a few grey areas such as partial androgen insensitivity being listed on both sides, so while it’s helpful, it doesn’t fully answer my question

Maybe we now need to educate the OP on Peircean semiotics
Icon
Index
Sign

?

I could do it, but I usually get paid a lot of money to do so; I suggest @Wombat2WombatCombat that you look up Peirce's ideas about semiotics, and how language works to refer to the material world around us.

You could think of various secondary sexual characteristics as icons & indexes of biological sex.

That might help you understand.

I'm bored of doing this for "woman".

Can we do "pizza" now?

Just for variety?

That’s a very good point that I took a while to consider. However, a quick Google yielded the fact that, in the U.K., death is singularly defined as brain stem death - there are several tests that are done, and it is only when all of them turn out negative is someone declared legally dead - it doesn’t seem to be as complex as the multiple factors that are so far being considered. This was my source: www.nhs.uk/conditions/brain-death/diagnosis/

If there are other sources which would make that definition unclear then obviously that would change things, but it seems like legal death possesses the exact sort of criteria I’m looking for in sex

Unfortunately that doesn't prove quite the point you think it does.

Apologies for the following morbid content.

The standard medical criteria for determining death are irreversible cessation of spontaneous circulation and respiration - in other words, your heart has stopped beating and you have stopped breathing, and neither can be restarted. In the vast majority of people, death is determined by these criteria, not by tests of brain death - even when people die in medical settings like hospitals. Many people can be classified as dead by a set of quick, simple and very non-subjective observations of pulse/heartbeat, breathing and skin temperature even by a medically untrained person, especially if some time has passed since death so that external changes in appearance are visibly evident.

Tests of brain death are reserved for situations where the normal criteria for determining death can't be applied; for example, someone on a ventilator whose circulation and breathing are maintained by artificial means - the brain is dead but the body is being kept alive by medical intervention. In that circumstance, determination of brain death enables an ethical decision to withdraw artificial ventilatory and circulatory support so that breathing and circulation can stop naturally, and the body dies as well as the brain.

Similarly, the vast majority of people can be classified as male or female by ordinary people using a quick and simple set of observations. More complex medical investigations by specialists are reserved for individuals whose circumstances are less straightforward.

OP, you say you know there are two sexes. Knowing there are two means you must see and know the differences yourself?

I am not disputing observable differences in sex, I am inquiring as to what the defined characteristics are that make someone male/female vs the opposite. People have been kind enough to give many broad, subjective definitions, but nothing that nails it down to ‘if you have x you are male, if not you are female’

Well if you've pushed a baby out of your vagina, that's a fairly obvious defining characteristic. Or if you have ejaculated sperm from your penis, that's another one. Or, I don't know breastfeeding? Menstruating?

All defining characteristics.

If you pee from your penis, that's another one.

How long have you got?

mmmmm pizza

We could feed it to the sea lions.

Or give it to Bunbury.

What's the defining observable characteristic of pizza? I mean, when you really think about it? Bread base? What's bread? Tomato sauce? What's the difference between tomato and aubergine? Tomatoes are red? Well what about the green ones or the yellow ones or the orange ones or the purple ones. Pizza has cheese? Well so do cheeseburgers. So do cheesecakes. So does cauliflower cheese. Etc etc

@Awiltu

That’s a very good point that I took a while to consider. However, a quick Google yielded the fact that, in the U.K., death is singularly defined as brain stem death - there are several tests that are done, and it is only when all of them turn out negative is someone declared legally dead - it doesn’t seem to be as complex as the multiple factors that are so far being considered. This was my source: www.nhs.uk/conditions/brain-death/diagnosis/

If there are other sources which would make that definition unclear then obviously that would change things, but it seems like legal death possesses the exact sort of criteria I’m looking for in sex

Unfortunately that doesn't prove quite the point you think it does.

Apologies for the following morbid content.

The standard medical criteria for determining death are irreversible cessation of spontaneous circulation and respiration - in other words, your heart has stopped beating and you have stopped breathing, and neither can be restarted. In the vast majority of people, death is determined by these criteria, not by tests of brain death - even when people die in medical settings like hospitals. Many people can be classified as dead by a set of quick, simple and very non-subjective observations of pulse/heartbeat, breathing and skin temperature even by a medically untrained person, especially if some time has passed since death so that external changes in appearance are visibly evident.

Tests of brain death are reserved for situations where the normal criteria for determining death can't be applied; for example, someone on a ventilator whose circulation and breathing are maintained by artificial means - the brain is dead but the body is being kept alive by medical intervention. In that circumstance, determination of brain death enables an ethical decision to withdraw artificial ventilatory and circulatory support so that breathing and circulation can stop naturally, and the body dies as well as the brain.

Similarly, the vast majority of people can be classified as male or female by ordinary people using a quick and simple set of observations. More complex medical investigations by specialists are reserved for individuals whose circumstances are less straightforward.

I’m really sorry if I’m being obtuse here, but I don’t see how that disproves my point? I’m asking for a defined set of characteristics such that it they are fulfilled, someone is one sex, and if they aren’t, they are another. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be saying that this does exist in death, both in the obvious cases and the less obvious cases, and indeed, it is the information obtained about them in the less obvious cases that is also being found in the obvious steps (irreversible cessation of spontaneous circulation and respiration, which is determined by brain stem death, with brain stem death having the defined characteristic of failing said tests). Is that correct?

Now you're being thick. When someone's pulse and respiration are found to be non existent their brain isn't also checked. The lack of heart beat and breathing is enough. Similarly if someone has tested they're male and vagina female.

In a few cases where the heart is beating and someone is breathing they can still be declared dead. Similarly in a few cases where the xx or xy are disordered sex is determined from further investigations done by specialists and people with special certificates and everything.

*testes

This has taken a very weird turn now.

Thanks for pointing that out - I must have missed it. You wouldn’t happen to know what the criteria are for each choice of male vs female is though do you? The table definitely implies that there is a defined way of distinguishing, however it doesn’t state what it is, and there’s still a few grey areas such as partial androgen insensitivity being listed on both sides, so while it’s helpful, it doesn’t fully answer my question

I don't know any more about it than what's in the image, I copied it from the earlier post by another poster.

Have you heard of search engines like google or duckduckgo? You could try one of them.

I'm asking for a defined set of characteristics such that it they are fulfilled, someone is one sex, and if they aren’t, they are another

Eh? Those are just arbitrary conditions. That you just made up.

Interestingly in many Asian countries the legal definition of 'death' is cessation of heart beat. They don't legally recognise brain death.Anyway OP, are you asking for necessary and sufficient conditions for sex? Given that biological sex is a biological concept, that makes it harder to delineate necessary and sufficient conditions (a similar problem crops up for things like the concept of 'species', 'health', etc. ) I do think that biological sex has sufficient conditions...if a person gives birth to offspring that means they are female, and if a person ejaculates semen and that has successfully been used to impregnate someone else then they are male. Necessary conditions are harder to pin down. But this doesn't make biological sex any more undefinable or odd than practically any other concept. We would probably have a huge difficulty giving necessary and sufficient conditions for concepts like cake, or dessert.

does mean that we can no longer rely on things like ‘men wear trousers’ and ‘women wear skirts’ as ways of identifying people’s sex

Men have been wearing some form of skirt-type garment since at least 4,000 BC. Women have been wearing trousers since at least 1,000BC. Just because trousers became fashionable for men a few hundred years ago, doesn't mean that they are a defining male garment.

So, are we now in the realm of ‘if a person’s skull measures x in size and weight the x = male / female’. ‘If a persons hip displacement is x = male/female’. ‘If persons arm bones are in x ratio proportions = male / female’. ‘If persons DNA sequence is x = male / female’. If persons karotype is ‘a’ = male / female.

Is that what you feel you need. A list of all characteristics available to describe a female or male?

Because that is what it seems you are asking.

Yet is really is simple. If your body is formed around the function of producing large gametes, even if your body has not yet, is currently, or ever has successfully produced large gametes you have the body type of female.

And that body type comes with a wide range of other sex characteristics. Some may be observable. Some may not.

@Datun

I'm asking for a defined set of characteristics such that it they are fulfilled, someone is one sex, and if they aren’t, they are another

Eh? Those are just arbitrary conditions. That you just made up.

How about if you troll MN asking what definitively makes a woman, that means you're male?