What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

Has Wombat been on here all day, or are there several of them doing a sort of relay of faux ignorance?.... At least yesterday's Plopper had a break to play golf, have dinner and show his "babe" what silly billies we women are. Oh no, my mistake, he managed it all at once without leaving his keyboard......

We would probably have a huge difficulty giving necessary and sufficient conditions for concepts like cake, or dessert.

Well yes. Should we use the HMRC definitions to work out whether Jaffa cakes are in facts cakes, or biscuits? Just how do we know whether to have with a cup of tea, or after tea?

@WeeBisom

Interestingly in many Asian countries the legal definition of 'death' is cessation of heart beat. They don't legally recognise brain death.Anyway OP, are you asking for necessary and sufficient conditions for sex? Given that biological sex is a biological concept, that makes it harder to delineate necessary and sufficient conditions (a similar problem crops up for things like the concept of 'species', 'health', etc. ) I do think that biological sex has sufficient conditions...if a person gives birth to offspring that means they are female, and if a person ejaculates semen and that has successfully been used to impregnate someone else then they are male. Necessary conditions are harder to pin down. But this doesn't make biological sex any more undefinable or odd than practically any other concept. We would probably have a huge difficulty giving necessary and sufficient conditions for concepts like cake, or dessert.

That’s fair, except the big difference is that we aren’t trying to gatekeep things on the basis of it being a cake - if we were, we would need to be able to describe the necessary conditions of a cake

"Gatekeep".

Male people tend to be poor at listening to female people, ignore our sex based needs, take advantage of our physical size, and go on and on and on and on.

Female people are tired.

@Datun

"Gatekeep".

What would you consider to be a more appropriate term?

People do "gatekeep", or simply categorise, according to cake v biscuit. It makes a difference to tax for businesses. Hence the Jaffa cake comment. A famous example of the cake or biscuit question.

Are you Eddie Izzard? @Wombat2WombatCombat

I wish you'd stuck with going on about cake and death. That stuff was funny and you were glorious.

@Wombat2WombatCombat - do you know your biological sex? and if so, how?

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Male people tend to be poor at listening to female people, ignore our sex based needs, take advantage of our physical size, and go on and on and on and on.

Female people are tired.

☝️☝️☝️☝️ bored male taunting women

"Gatekeep"
What would you consider to be a more appropriate term?

Safeguard.

Op, you're trying to fit your definition of the word definition around a concept that you want to be true.

Like if you have this you're a woman but if you don't have it you're not. When it doesn't work that way if you have a penis you're a man, but a person without a penis isn't necessarily a woman.

And the word gatekeep just comes across as an odd choice.

If you don't know what sex you are, go and ask your mum.

If you do know what sex you are, stay out of facilities for the opposite sex.

Don't make 'gatekeeping' necessary, please.

god, are you lot still humouring this twerp?

you do realise he'll be typing one handed by now, don't you?

OP have you ever had anyone speak to you like you're a fucking idiot?

Then you're probably a woman.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

god, are you lot still humouring this twerp?

you do realise he'll be typing one handed by now, don't you?

True.

@RVN123

OP have you ever had anyone speak to you like you're a fucking idiot?

Then you're probably a woman.

I was rather hoping to get an answer as to how the person knows what sex they are.

@Awiltu

"Gatekeep" What would you consider to be a more appropriate term?

Safeguard.

In that case apologies for using an inappropriate term. I believe someone else had used it previously to describe the same thing, hence my initial adoption, but your alternative seems far better suited to the purpose, so I will use safeguard from now on

🍆

One handed, people

@Helleofabore

So, are we now in the realm of ‘if a person’s skull measures x in size and weight the x = male / female’. ‘If a persons hip displacement is x = male/female’. ‘If persons arm bones are in x ratio proportions = male / female’. ‘If persons DNA sequence is x = male / female’. If persons karotype is ‘a’ = male / female.

Is that what you feel you need. A list of all characteristics available to describe a female or male?

Because that is what it seems you are asking.

Yet is really is simple. If your body is formed around the function of producing large gametes, even if your body has not yet, is currently, or ever has successfully produced large gametes you have the body type of female.

And that body type comes with a wide range of other sex characteristics. Some may be observable. Some may not.

The former (probably not quite to the extent you are saying) is pretty much exactly what I’m looking for - plenty of people have already given me the latter definition, but nobody has thus far elaborated on exactly what it means, although there has been a table shared which implies there’s a way to define it. @Awiltu has already helpfully given a list of important traits which are frequently differentiated between the sexes, but to my knowledge, nobody has explained which if any take precedence, and how to determine it when a characteristic fits into neither

Then maybe you are looking for the wrong thing, you great big gallah.

You've decided the outcome and want us to make the facts fit your beliefs.

That's delusion.

Ever so slightly OT but this subject reminds me of the Pete Shelley song everytime.
It is quite simple unless you want to make it complicated.

We need it to be entirely socially acceptable for a feminine male to be in male spaces without feeling threatened (a problem for penis havers to solve).
I'm yet to see much evidence of there being any particular threat to an effeminate male from being in a male space. Men are more accepting of difference than TRAs would like us to believe. If someone obeys all of the usual rules of urinal etiquette (like no sideways looks), they don't get beaten up.

More importantly, can you be straightforward about why you want this definition?

I get the feeling it's because you want to be able to say 'there is not one characteristic that outwardly and definitively defines sex, so there is no way to ensure single sex spaces are really single sex. Let's just stop trying to separate them at all'

But that's a bullshit conclusion because everyone knows what sex they are. Everyone. Even if they wish they were the other one.

It doesn't wash.

Is that why you are asking? Be honest.

I'm asking because there has been so much good scientific information shared on this thread and it's all such a waste of time and energy if the question you actually wanted to ask was; 'if a bloke uses the ladies, will he be shown up as a fraud and get thrown out?'

Anyone else getting the impression that the OP’s replies to everyone’s posts reads like they’re being made by an AI chatbot? A trolling AI chatbot? Ingenious.