What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

LaChanticleer

Yes. Those who cannot be identified into either category are so rare that even the papers written about them are disputed.

But we are being told that because every single human being on this planet ever born in the past, now or in the future may have an extremely rare medical condition, that sex categories cannot be defined.

And therefore single sex spaces should be left open to whoever looks like they should use them. And it is like none of us are aware of the underlying queer theory that is determined to force open known and reliably proven science for some people’s own motivations.

@IamAporcupine

sorry to derrail *@youvegottenminuteslynn* - love your username

Back of the net

@LaChanticleer I have no idea about the details of sexual dimorphism, DSD and the quote-unquote actuality of male vs female in those cases.

In my humble opinion, and I personally think in generalities and not the specifics of DSD, sexual dimorphism and so on, it is more helpful to say that biology is comprised of broad categories and edge cases, than to spend time arguing that those edge cases are themselves in the categories and hence the disproving of the existence of the edge-cases-and-broad-categories framework in favour of the categories one. I prefer the existence of the categories-plus-exceptions thing.

Humans are born as complete people with heads, bodies, and whatever.

Then, suddenly, two-headed beings exist. If you do not have the space to file them under "eh, biology", what do you do?

This, though, sort of descends into philosophy and personal preference.

I may have lost the OP by this point.

And it is like none of us are aware of the underlying queer theory that is determined to force open known and reliably proven science for some people’s own motivations.

I was re-reading Butler's Gender Trouble just the other day, and it struck me - once again - that the book & the arguments in it, are just that arguments - not Holy Writ.

We don't have to agree with those arguments.

There are other arguments, with far better evidence to support them, about the material reality of women's lives, their economic situations, employment, health, legal, social circumstances etc etc etc, supported by actual data.

All except for a very, very, very tiny percentage of people are male or female. It is complex to try and categorise people with DSD simply but that does not mean that the binary is not present. There is a such similarity between women on many physical traits that this is a sensible way to categorise. Its notnfeadible to conduct an in depth analysis every time you want to set up separate categories really is it? And there's no need need we already know how much stronger, more aggressive etc men are.

Tail wagging dog.

The characteristics of the group do not define the group.
Individuals of the same sex exist. whatever those individuals do is a manifestation of the group.

Men have the smaller gamete. if the secondary manifestation is that they grow chest hair then men grow chest hair.
Not: the people who grow chest hair are men.

i'm out because this was silly before but yeah, it's almost sad we have to point stuff like this out.

The person who gave birth to you was...?

The person who gave birth to you was...?

Extremely annoyed with what they produced, I imagine.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I think that’s broadly the same question. Essentially, I want to know what specific biological definition of a male/female is, and the existence of those with DSDs and the difficulty in applying a consistent classification is what is making me struggle to work it what it is

OP it is very hard in real terms to define the exact moment of death. Does that mean you think we should do away with the idea of death? Do you struggle to know when someone is dead or alive?

That’s a very good point that I took a while to consider. However, a quick Google yielded the fact that, in the U.K., death is singularly defined as brain stem death - there are several tests that are done, and it is only when all of them turn out negative is someone declared legally dead - it doesn’t seem to be as complex as the multiple factors that are so far being considered. This was my source: www.nhs.uk/conditions/brain-death/diagnosis/

If there are other sources which would make that definition unclear then obviously that would change things, but it seems like legal death possesses the exact sort of criteria I’m looking for in sex

I see that the OP can Google how to tell if someone is dead or alive.
They can't however do the same to tell if someone is male or female.

Wombat2WombatCombat

I think this is the third time I've asked.

If you don't perceive any recognisable differences between men and women, how does your hypothetical male (who is presumably trans) know to go into the ladies?

So you don't want the biological definition then you want the legal one?

So why did you ask for the biological one?

It’s all down to the genes. Unless there is a rare chromosomal abnormality such as someone with an XYX (extra x). Then I believe they are known as ‘intersex’.

@NecessaryScene

The person who gave birth to you was...?

Extremely annoyed with what they produced, I imagine.

@Wombat2WombatCombat From your post RE death and the UK definition, can we narrow down what ever bizzarity you are after to the UK only? i.e. you are seeking criteria for sex definition in the UK only(?)

Would that satisfy you any better?

@Cheesecakeandwineinasuitcase

It’s all down to the genes. Unless there is a rare chromosomal abnormality such as someone with an XYX (extra x). Then I believe they are known as ‘intersex’.

Someone who is XXY would be male with Klinefelter syndrome.

OP, name one thing on earth, natural or man made, that is created 100% exactly to design or blueprint, 100% of the time.

Or, is this an inconvenient question. Because it means that every single thing produced on earth by nature or by man has exceptions that simply does not mean the description category is meaningless.

@NecessaryScene

The person who gave birth to you was...?

Extremely annoyed with what they produced, I imagine.

Some of the comments on this thread! 🤣

@Datun

Wombat2WombatCombat

I think this is the third time I've asked.

If you don't perceive any recognisable differences between men and women, how does your hypothetical male (who is presumably trans) know to go into the ladies?

I am not disputing observable differences in sex, I am inquiring as to what the defined characteristics are that make someone male/female vs the opposite. People have been kind enough to give many broad, subjective definitions, but nothing that nails it down to ‘if you have x you are male, if not you are female’

I find threads like this on the one hand very frustrating but on the other very comforting.

The historical deliberate 'I don't understands', 'explain it again' comments just provide endless opportunities to demonstrate the weakness in the trans 'women is a feeling' argument and how obtuse the OP is. I feel more and more reassured in my lack of belief in the concept of gender.

We are all members of one sex or the other from the moment we are conceived and continue to be clearly and obviously a member of that sex for the rest of our days.

Anyone that can't see it is deliberately avoiding the obvious, or as I suggested before are male and unable to see the sex because they focus on secondary sexual characteristics and can't see what for women is just obvious

Here you go (again):

f you have small motile gametes you are male, if not you have large immobile gametes you are female.

This holds true for any mammal.

Stop being goady @Wombat2WombatCombat. You, I and every other human being knows what a woman is.

If you have small motile gametes you are male, if you have large immotile gametes you are female.

OP, you do know the bit you've read about legal death etc only applies to people who are on life support and classified as having "brain death"? So doesn't actually apply to the classification of death in any other instance.

[quote erinaceus]@Wombat2WombatCombat From your post RE death and the UK definition, can we narrow down what ever bizzarity you are after to the UK only? i.e. you are seeking criteria for sex definition in the UK only(?)

Would that satisfy you any better?[/quote]
I see no reason why that would be a problem

You have be told this objective fact repeatedly.