What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

Fourth option. They are a TW doing all the usual mental gymnastics and word salad inventing to suggest that we really can't ever know what a woman is.

Fair enough. So here's your definition.

Men and women are (mostly) the same. They can do the same things (taking care of children, being a dancer, being a CEO, nurse, judge, president, wtv). However there are some physical differences, both genetic, internal and external. Because of these men have tended to sexually, physically and emotionally torture women, for millennia, and murder them as well. Because of this, women tend to be sh*t scared of men, and need sex segregated safe spaces, especially when we're talking about states of undress or unconsciousness/powerlessness (sleeping, hospital wards, refuges......).

Soooo if you are transitioning the question you need to really ask yourself is: are you scary to women?

The women you see in a public bathroom don't know you, so they judge you by appearance alone. 🤷🏻‍♀️ So, could you potentially be a threat to them? "Could" being an important word here. I'm not saying you are! (I still tell my kids not to run with scissors. That doesn't mean they are 100% going to hurt themselves, but they COULD)

@Wombat2WombatCombat "What I am seeking is a definition of how these differences fit into the idea of a distinct sex binary whereby you are only one or the other, and it is this idea of ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness’ as distinct and definable traits that drives segregation - that’s what it seems to me we need if we are going to segregate in any legal sense on the basis of male and female." For the nth time, why do chromosomes not give you this?

OP asked for the biological definition of sex.
OP got given the biological definition of service .
OP doesn't like the biological definition of sex so ignores it.

A woman is an adult human female who either has gone through, or will go through, menopause. Even women who have their womb removed go through menopause. It is one of the most significant and challenging times of a woman’s life, but transwomen don’t acknowledge this, because they’re men, and men hate talking about the menopause. Instead, transwomen obsess over genitals, because they are men, and men are obsessed with genitals.

But the obsession with reproductive systems is perhaps a distraction. Let’s go back to basics. A woman is a human with a female skeleton. Male and female skeletons are completely different. (Even a bone fragment can be analysed centuries later and be determined as male or female.) For example: the pelvis is wide and shallow in the female, and the pelvic inlet, also known as the superior pelvic aperture is wide, oval and rounded. While in the male it is heart shaped, and narrow. ... The coccyx in the male pelvis is projected inwards and immovable while a female pelvis has a flexible and straighter coccyx… Women are much more prone to knee injuries, and so on. A transman may have multiple surgeries and mess with her hormones, but she’s still headed for menopause, she still has a female skeleton, and she’s still much more likely to injure her knees.

I am fully aware and not attempting to deny that there are obvious differences in sex in individuals. What I am seeking is a definition of how these differences fit into the idea of a distinct sex binary whereby you are only one or the other, and it is this idea of ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness’ as distinct and definable traits that drives segregation

Differences between the sexes fit into a sex-based binary because sex is binary - there are only 2 sex classes in humans. "Maleness" and "femaleness" are distinct and definable traits that drive sex-based segregation because maleness and femaleness are descriptors of sets of physical characteristics that determine which sex class each human belongs to.

Sex binary, sex differences, maleness, femaleness. These aren't unrelated concepts that you have to fit together like a jigsaw. They're just different ways of referring to the sexual dimorphism of the human species.

Not service, sex.

OK I will bite (a bit) @Wombat2WombatCombat do you realise that your last comment could be seen as getting close to some very unpleasant alleys including racism and disablism? "Separating" people on the basis of "specific physical traits" is not a slippery slope you want to step on to, I would think. That is emphatically not what people are doing when they are insisting that women, and only women, are women.

However, if what you guys say is true, then it may be unnecessary (certainly that’s what I thought going into this)

What's it called when someone claims something, is faced with loads of opposing facts and then claims they all support their original premise...?

sorry to derrail
@youvegottenminuteslynn - love your username

But the obsession with reproductive systems is perhaps a distraction. Let’s go back to basics. A woman is a human with a female skeleton. Male and female skeletons are completely different. (Even a bone fragment can be analysed centuries later and be determined as male or female.) For example: the pelvis is wide and shallow in the female, and the pelvic inlet, also known as the superior pelvic aperture is wide, oval and rounded. While in the male it is heart shaped, and narrow. ... The coccyx in the male pelvis is projected inwards and immovable while a female pelvis has a flexible and straighter coccyx… Women are much more prone to knee injuries, and so on

The reproductive system is what sex is all about - it is the 'back to basics'. It is the fundamental, not the distraction. The rest you describe is a result of reproduction. Indeed the rest is part of the reproductive system in humans. But sex exists in other animals and plants too and male and female are determined by gametes.

It's funny isn't it - we can even spot a man by what he types alone!

Dude, you're obviously going to always be confused. So here's a thought - leave the debates and decisions up to the grown ups who understand this very basic stuff. In the meantime make sure you use the little boys facilities.

It sounds as if you are saying that the existence of exceptions to the rule makes the rule meaningless to you. Because DSD ergo no sexes. Biology is not A-level further math and proof by counterexample does not triumph.

Unfortunately for you, the mapping of biology to distinct, binary definitions in purist, concrete terms is in general lacking. I spent quite a long time studying the integration of biology and statistical physics and witnessed this dilemma over and over. And over. A sort of "consider a spherical cow" type of situation.

What the law and biology do do is the best that we can in the time that we have, that is to say, take all sweeping definitions, generalisations, and exceptions, all of that messiness, and built the best thing that we can have out of it all.

You seem to be saying that, given the existence of DSD, the best thing we can do would be to abolish sex categories. Most humans fall into the XX or XY categories and the abolition of those categories is having direct impactions for all humans, and distinctly worse outcomes for half of us. The tiny number of DSD individuals would not themselves in particular benefit from the abolition of sex categories, indeed they may well be harmed through difficulties in their accessing healthcare.

Spending some time reading about edge cases in both biology and law might enlighten you to how difficult those situations are to navigate. Be thankful that most of us do not have to.

regarding jam

I worry about all the boiling sugar @ExtraPlinky

do you not find it a bit scary?

Excellent post @erinaceus, although it will go over the OP's head.

Essentially, I want to know what specific biological definition of a male/female is,

That has been provided numerous times in this thread, in a selection of different wordings.

and the existence of those with DSDs and the difficulty in applying a consistent classification is what is making me struggle to work it what it is

Think beyond the reproductive system, OP. Does the existence of congenital heart defects that result in disordered cardiac anatomy mean that we can't consistently recognise what a heart looks like? Does the existence of congenital aural atresia, a condition where the visible part of the outer ear doesn't form properly, mean that we can't consistently recognise what an ear looks like?

There are known congenital disorders affecting the development of anatomical structures for every human organ system. The fact that differences may exist in a tiny proportion of the population doesn't mean we can't recognise what the typical development of each system looks like.

As I asked before on this thread.
OP, name one thing on earth, natural or man made, that is created 100% exactly to design or blueprint, 100% of the time.

In biological terms regarding sex there are no outliers only male gametes and female gametes. They are binary.

I think that’s broadly the same question. Essentially, I want to know what specific biological definition of a male/female is, and the existence of those with DSDs and the difficulty in applying a consistent classification is what is making me struggle to work it what it is

OP it is very hard in real terms to define the exact moment of death. Does that mean you think we should do away with the idea of death? Do you struggle to know when someone is dead or alive?

Ty @theDudesmummy. My overall impression is that OP understands our discussions; if OP did not understand our discussions their engagement with us would be more authentic.

OP is trolling. I wonder what they are deriving from this.

This thread is astonishing

I am fully aware and not attempting to deny that there are obvious differences in sex in individuals. What I am seeking is a definition of how these differences fit into the idea of a distinct sex binary whereby you are only one or the other, and it is this idea of ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness’ as distinct and definable traits that drives segregation - that’s what it seems to me we need if we are going to segregate in any legal sense on the basis of male and female. If not, then as far as I can figure out, the solution is not to simply treat everyone the same, but to analysis specific physical traits apart from the concepts of male and female, instead on the basis of how they relate to the specific issue at hand, and if necessary separate by those instead. However, if what you guys say is true, then it may be unnecessary (certainly that’s what I thought going into this)

All except for a very, very, very tiny percentage of people are male or female. It is complex to try and categorise people with DSD simply but that does not mean that the binary is not present. There is a such similarity between women on many physical traits that this is a sensible way to categorise. Its notnfeadible to conduct an in depth analysis every time you want to set up separate categories really is it? And there's no need need we already know how much stronger, more aggressive etc men are.

It sounds as if you are saying that the existence of exceptions to the rule makes the rule meaningless to you.

Of course this is a classic tra tactic. Forcing a description to include the exceptions or it is invalid. When those exceptions are people with medical conditions that actually don’t defy the definition which remains robust for all except those with the medical conditions.

Hence the ‘oh… well… bipedal is not relevant to humans’.

And the ‘how can you tell’ reliably anyway?

And the what are you going to do about it anyway too?

Same old, same old.

Tell you what OP. How about a miraculous dna sequencer is used to judge every person’s entry into spaces.

You have continued to ignore any suggestion that males take responsibility for their actions and just don’t disrespect female’s needs. Therefore stop forcing the issue.

What does it say about males who simply cannot show that respect?

How about you answer that!

It sounds as if you are saying that the existence of exceptions to the rule makes the rule meaningless to you. Because DSD ergo no sexes. Biology is not A-level further math and proof by counterexample does not triumph.

However, as I understand expert biology researchers such as Dr Emma Hilton - as well as genetic experts on DSDs/VSDs - even those with VSDs are actually either male or female.

The 'hermaphrodite" is a mythical fantasy. Humans are mammals; we are sexually dimorphic.

@Wombat2WombatCombat

Christ I’ve only got to page 8 and I am done.

I just wanted to say someone up thread said they are posting for lurkers.

OP you think you’re being oh so clever trying to ‘be kind’ to us women by ‘not understanding’.

You insult our intelligence by your falseness.

What you don’t get is the joke is on you.

As I read the responses I only feel stronger about the importance that we fight to protect the definition of women as adult human female (and jog on with your ‘but what is a woman).

Through this definition I will protect my fellow sisters rights to safety, health, education, economic power and to have a voice at the table, any table.

Yes, page after page of polite, well-informed women carefully educating the OP and page after page of the OP attempting to wind them up. We need to archive this thread and use it as a beautiful example of how reasonable, articulate and well-informed MNetters. Thank you, wombat.