What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

I NEED TO SHOUT THIS OP!!

DSD MAKE UP 0.018% OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF THE EARTH.

I don't know why this would affect you in everyday life. Most doctors will go through their whole medical career and never meet one single person with a DSD.

It's really not hard. Unless you're a geneticist or you have a friends or a relative with a DSD, it really shouldn't concern you this much.

@Wombat2WombatCombat "there are some cases in which neither organ is clearly presenting, or where the ‘male’ organ is present in one area and the ‘female’ in another."

In the absence of such a situation, do you agree that male and female categories are distinctly defined? i.e. what you are doing is arguing about edge cases?

Are you saying that the presence of these individuals eradicates the categories male and female?

Or are you asking specifically how a clinician determines an individual experiencing a DSD is male or female?

@grey12

Posters to this thread, one of two options:

• either OP is a 10yo completely and utterly uneducated person who lived alone on an island up to now

• or they're trying to get MN to come up with legal BS jargon definitions that are all inclusive all omnipotent all omniscient

Ok, third option, OP is a troll 🤷🏻‍♀️

Fourth option. They are a TW doing all the usual mental gymnastics and word salad inventing to suggest that we really can't ever know what a woman is.

In the nicest possible way, why are you so obsessed with people with DSDs? What relevance do they have to the rest of us who comprise 99.96 % of the population?

Tell you what OP, give us a definition of woman that has nothing to do with biology and nothing to do with racist regressive stereotypes. There will always be some grey areas around the edge of any definition so we can then look at your definition and the traditional one and we can see which holds any water whatsoever.

My assumption was that OP is just on here for kicks.

Well, I think we found the person who asked 'how is babby formed'?

or if you have no definition and are therefore arguing that we just call all humans 'human' with no other more specific catergorisation related to 'sex' or 'gender' then maybe you should explain how you you think having no separate spaces or categories for men and women (i.e. shared prisons, all shared sports, shared toilets, no data which shows the different medical treatments you need dependent in your sex etc.) is going to not cause any problems whatsoever

@erinaceus

My assumption was that OP is just on here for kicks.

Or perhaps an assignment for their year 6 project?

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee Next episode of Black Mirror:

Sixth-grade teacher assigns her students "How far can you troll Mumsnet?" as an assignment.

"neither organ is clearly presenting"...? Well there you have the level of discourse...Glad I did not spend waste too much of my day trying to engage with this person (agree that they may well be a TW and in any case are very likely penis haver) as some people, much to their annoyance, have! I have read the thread though and there have been some unvelievably good posts. So they weren't a waste of time.

It is not, but the stuff I’ve read seems to indicate that there are some cases in which neither organ is clearly presenting, or where the ‘male’ organ is present in one area and the ‘female’ in another. Your response does not seem to explain how that applies in the context of determining someone as either male or female; whether some traits take precedence over others, the proportional weight accorded to each etc

So your question actually is: in the 0.02% of the cases where abnormal male and female anatomy/physiology might be present - how do the experts make the classification?

That's an entirely different question to your OP

Op, so again, what criteria is your hypothetical person using to determine what facility to use?

@IamAporcupine

It is not, but the stuff I’ve read seems to indicate that there are some cases in which neither organ is clearly presenting, or where the ‘male’ organ is present in one area and the ‘female’ in another. Your response does not seem to explain how that applies in the context of determining someone as either male or female; whether some traits take precedence over others, the proportional weight accorded to each etc

So your question actually is: in the 0.02% of the cases where abnormal male and female anatomy/physiology might be present - how do the experts make the classification?

That's an entirely different question to your OP

To be clear OP, this poster is spot on that your new question is entirely different to your original one.

Presumably because you didn't like the fact that women eloquently and comprehensively answered your original one?

I think I have the answer you are looking for OP.

Women have skirts, bras, boobies, long hair, lipstick, suspenders, stockings, high heels, lace panties, nail varnish, cat collars, cat ears, handbags. They tilt their heads and they talk with very high pitched voices. They have pillow fights with lesbian friends. They giggle. They braid their hair and they are very shy.

Men have James Dean haircuts, white T-shirts, a checked shirt and a tattoo.

Does that answer your question sufficiently?

Bunbury

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

or if you have no definition and are therefore arguing that we just call all humans 'human' with no other more specific catergorisation related to 'sex' or 'gender' then maybe you should explain how you you think having no separate spaces or categories for men and women (i.e. shared prisons, all shared sports, shared toilets, no data which shows the different medical treatments you need dependent in your sex etc.) is going to not cause any problems whatsoever

But what is a HUMAN? I don't think there are any objective differences between, say, a human and a chimpanzee or a human and a snail.

These differences are all in your head.

What about trans-species people?

I cannot believe the bigotry on this thread.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

or if you have no definition and are therefore arguing that we just call all humans 'human' with no other more specific catergorisation related to 'sex' or 'gender' then maybe you should explain how you you think having no separate spaces or categories for men and women (i.e. shared prisons, all shared sports, shared toilets, no data which shows the different medical treatments you need dependent in your sex etc.) is going to not cause any problems whatsoever

I am fully aware and not attempting to deny that there are obvious differences in sex in individuals. What I am seeking is a definition of how these differences fit into the idea of a distinct sex binary whereby you are only one or the other, and it is this idea of ‘maleness’ and ‘femaleness’ as distinct and definable traits that drives segregation - that’s what it seems to me we need if we are going to segregate in any legal sense on the basis of male and female. If not, then as far as I can figure out, the solution is not to simply treat everyone the same, but to analysis specific physical traits apart from the concepts of male and female, instead on the basis of how they relate to the specific issue at hand, and if necessary separate by those instead. However, if what you guys say is true, then it may be unnecessary (certainly that’s what I thought going into this)

@mammajustkilledagnat

Bunbury

Do you have a recipe for jam? I keep making jam that is too runny but I don't want to use so much sugar?

@VaginaRegina

Ah, the song of the sealion! Plaintive and insistent, but ultimately dull as fuck.

Y chromosome-havers= men. Everyone else= women.

There are a tiny tiny number of people with abnormal development of sexual organs who could be men or women, it is not always possible to tell by gross physical examination and further testing would be required. The presence of this tiny group of people changes nothing about the definition.

Femaleness and maleness isn't used to group

It's being male or female. Noun not adjective

I don't believe there is in the uk anyone whose sex isn't known

The only hard case is I think only one rare type of DSD where the individual is genetically male but presents very strongly as female due to hormone response. These people need to be treated with care , compassion , with many things evaluated on a case by case basis. Even they know their sex. If they can manage why can't you?

Who does making this so complicated benefit?

For the vast majority of humans, biological sex is obvious. People who suffer from disorders of sexual development and have an unclear sexual classification, work with doctors to investigate the condition and in that process discover the actual sex. That sex can then be recorded in government documents like the rest of the population. This documentation is what can be used as the official demarcation for access to single sex spaces. It should not change because of identity or belief. It should only be changed from the initial recording at birth if the exploration or a DSD provides corrected information.

@IamAporcupine

It is not, but the stuff I’ve read seems to indicate that there are some cases in which neither organ is clearly presenting, or where the ‘male’ organ is present in one area and the ‘female’ in another. Your response does not seem to explain how that applies in the context of determining someone as either male or female; whether some traits take precedence over others, the proportional weight accorded to each etc

So your question actually is: in the 0.02% of the cases where abnormal male and female anatomy/physiology might be present - how do the experts make the classification?

That's an entirely different question to your OP

I think that’s broadly the same question. Essentially, I want to know what specific biological definition of a male/female is, and the existence of those with DSDs and the difficulty in applying a consistent classification is what is making me struggle to work it what it is