What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

Some males are entering female spaces = omg what does the concept of sex even mean!

Can we apply this style of thinking more broadly when people break social contracts or laws? If I'm caught speeding can I question the concept of speed (did the officer take into account the fact that the earth is travelling through space, huh? People describe roads as "going somewhere", therefore it is reasonable for me to assert that the road is also travelling forwards which would make my so called speed in relation to it negligible etc etc etc.)

@Wombat2WombatCombat Coming right back atcha: what do you mean by "what happens next?"

There are two people in your tableau, the "you" and the 'man'.

Which character am I playing as? This is like one of those text-based computer games from the 1980s.

God, i find questions like this really offensive.

One sex class of human has oppressed the other for millenia. In all that time no one ever had any trouble figuring out who were the men and who were the women, which people to shit on from a great height based on their sex.

And now, just when women in the Western world at least, have managed to carve out some semblance of what could be deemed 'equality' suddenly its oh so difficult to understand and we have to have this faux philosophical handwringing horseshit about what constitutes male and female?

Bore off.......

what observable trait (ie not just a ‘feeling’) do these people have that make them not women?

They're men. We see it. We observe it. You may think your questions are clever gotchas but they're not. We see men. We see you. Got it?

Some males are entering female spaces = omg what does the concept of sex even mean!

Yep, now that women have managed to carve out some spaces for themselves and make them single sex to keep themselves safe and give themselves some representation, suddenly sex is just oh so difficult to work out, so those single sex spaces just ain't gonna work any more?

I had assumed that the basis for segregation was on a quantifiable, biological, observable and specific difference between men and women

If you know you're a boy use the boy's room, if you know you're a girl, use the girl's.

Are you still not sure which ones you should use? Perhaps you could ask your GP to confirm for you.

@Wombat2WombatCombat "Perhaps the question I’m asking will be clearer if I frame it differently: what observable trait (ie not just a ‘feeling’) do these people have that make them not women? I had assumed that the basis for segregation was on a quantifiable, biological, observable and specific difference between men and women - it was why I subscribed to this ideology in the first place. Is this correct?"

One way to look at intuition is, in many cases the integration of the accumulation of many tiny pieces of information over time. This is not fluffy hand-waving-away of intuition as always correct, more to say that gut feeling is not supernatural but is conclusions made from complicated interactions of bits of a lifetime's worth of experience, in an instant.

Am I correct to interpret that what you are demanding is the enumeration of all of this information?

[quote erinaceus]@Wombat2WombatCombat Coming right back atcha: what do you mean by "what happens next?"

There are two people in your tableau, the "you" and the 'man'.

Which character am I playing as? This is like one of those text-based computer games from the 1980s.[/quote]
You are the woman - what I want to know is what you do next. I had my own ideas of what would happen, but several replies have contradicted this and when I ask for elaboration the responses seem contradictory

You are the woman - what I want to know is what you do next. I had my own ideas of what would happen, but several replies have contradicted this and when I ask for elaboration the responses seem contradictory

Oh I see what you've done. You've assumed that every woman is exactly the same and will respond to a particular situation in exactly the same way.

Guess what - we're all individuals. (Brian )

Is this thread getting bogged down in toilets now?

what observable trait .... do these people have that make them not women
I think we've told you that. Many, many traits.

Chromosomes, hormones and all that flows therefrom.

@Plasmodesmata

Is this thread getting bogged down in toilets now?

They always do with posters like the OP.

Why are you obsessed with toilets Wombat?

@Wombat2WombatCombat What happens next would depend on the individuals involved, surely? It's not as if there are blanket rules for these things.

What do you think would happen?

You are the woman - what I want to know is what you do next. I had my own ideas of what would happen, but several replies have contradicted this and when I ask for elaboration the responses seem contradictory

OP, why don't you tell us your own ideas of what would happen, and what was contradictory about the replies that you received, and we can go on from there?

[quote erinaceus]@Wombat2WombatCombat "Perhaps the question I’m asking will be clearer if I frame it differently: what observable trait (ie not just a ‘feeling’) do these people have that make them not women? I had assumed that the basis for segregation was on a quantifiable, biological, observable and specific difference between men and women - it was why I subscribed to this ideology in the first place. Is this correct?"

One way to look at intuition is, in many cases the integration of the accumulation of many tiny pieces of information over time. This is not fluffy hand-waving-away of intuition as always correct, more to say that gut feeling is not supernatural but is conclusions made from complicated interactions of bits of a lifetime's worth of experience, in an instant.

Am I correct to interpret that what you are demanding is the enumeration of all of this information?[/quote]
Yes, essentially - a distillation of all the the biological criteria that states precisely both what it means to be male/female, and why that A: allows for and B: justifies segregation. I had assumed that had always existed, but when I asked what it was, I received a mixture of responses, some seemingly saying it doesn’t, and others saying saying that there is, but seemingly refusing to articulate what it is, supposedly because it’s obvious

I already offered a scenario for this ^ up there somewhere.

Nothing would happen. There might be a comment and either the person is obviously female on second glance and from their voice and an apology is made and all is good...

Or

The man in the ladies gets a bit red faced and hot and bothered because they don't pass. Some might get angry at this point. Some might skulk off.

Nothing more happens. No one asks to see any documentation or the contents of anyone's pants.

Brilliant. This is so clearly and concisely expressed, TheCurrywurst. I may have to bookmark it for future use, if that's OK with you!

@Wombat2WombatCombat, are you a man, or are you a woman?

And what makes you so?

Is Wombat trying to work out whether we would contact security or the police?

Or that women would all just leave and warn other women entering that there is a male? Maybe we need a certain eye movement?

Or that we would start abusing the male, I mean some women may for different reasons, I am not denying that might happen.

Or that women may simply hang back to ensure all other women have a witness around until the male left?

Gosh… I don’t know quite what to say. Maybe like the definition having to fit exactly with no exceptions for miniscule % we need to tell them the action 100% of female’s would take.

@Awiltu

You are the woman - what I want to know is what you do next. I had my own ideas of what would happen, but several replies have contradicted this and when I ask for elaboration the responses seem contradictory

OP, why don't you tell us your own ideas of what would happen, and what was contradictory about the replies that you received, and we can go on from there?

I assumed that, should someone who appears male appear, someone would call for whatever policing is required by current laws, and remove them on the basis of whatever law they have broken (I don’t know what law it is that people do break in this situation, but part of my support has been based on the fact that I assume these views are backed by law). The reason all of this is able to happen is because there is some directly quantifiable (ie not a subjective feeling based on observation) which the intruder can ultimately be held to - it may not be possible to assess this at the time, but it can be done by a later date, and if it turns out they did fit the criteria for being a woman, they can be compensated for having been unfairly bullied out of there bathrooms. If there is no precise biological characteristic, then I don’t see how any of this can function, as at that point as far as I can tell (assuming they haven’t done anything else except use the facilities) you are essentially bullying someone out of a toilet because they subjectively made you feel a certain way

@Wombat2WombatCombat

@Wombat2WombatCombat That would make a good topic for a PhD thesis. Zeitgeisty, interdisciplinary...

The biological criteria are straightforward. To my mind (PhD statistical genetics, I feel qualified to address), male and female is an XX vs XY situation. Then woman is the adult with the XX chromosomes. The edge cases vis a vis genetic abnormalities are related to and treated as best as humans can, and with as much compassion as we can muster, because we are human, and doing the best we can in a fallen world. We choose to do this, rather than being an asshat and using the existence of these individuals to question foundational biology.

If you demand that your humans be abnormality-free in order for the male/female categories to exist then good luck with that. Arguing that DSD discredit male and female categories could be related to arguing the genetic abnormalities discredit the existence of humans.

And the thing about people who have VSD (variations of sexual development) is that they are actually the exceptions who prove the rule about humans reproducing by sexual reproduction.

The process of sexual reproduction of the fertilisation of large gametes by small gametes - means minute and individual variations in individuals.

It’s how evolution works.

I know I’m putting this simply (to the point of crudeness) but some people seem to need reminding.

"""Perhaps the question I’m asking will be clearer if I frame it differently: what observable trait (ie not just a ‘feeling’) do these people have that make them not women? """

Big cocks and bollocks.

End of biology lesson. You may now collect your certificate.

@Helleofabore

Is Wombat trying to work out whether we would contact security or the police?

Or that women would all just leave and warn other women entering that there is a male? Maybe we need a certain eye movement?

Or that we would start abusing the male, I mean some women may for different reasons, I am not denying that might happen.

Or that women may simply hang back to ensure all other women have a witness around until the male left?

Gosh… I don’t know quite what to say. Maybe like the definition having to fit exactly with no exceptions for miniscule % we need to tell them the action 100% of female’s would take.

It’s only the first one and maybe second I really want to know about - nothing else requires any laws or any specific biological classification of being male or female - they are simply subjective, personal actions you would be entitled to do regardless of people’s stance on any of the transgender/what is a male or female stuff

Dear lurkers, see what disingenuous, cherry-picking, slimy, wriggly, squirrel-pointing the OP engages in, and draw your own conclusions.