What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

@Wombat2WombatCombat Is it possible to rephrase your question as "Which toilets should a person with a DSD use?"

If not, how is your question different?

There's a TV series on the BBC called Couples Therapy:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0b8knbw/couples-therapy-series-1-episode-1

The moment one of the individuals was shown (13.20-ish on the video) I knew they were trans. Milliseconds. No need to think about it. Something to do with shoulder width and jawline angle. So did my female partner, watching with me. We wondered afterwards why we didn't read this individual as a strapping woman, but we didn't.

The issues arising in that relationship were really interesting.

What idiot can't tell the difference between biological males and biological females?

Let me also tell you OP, that as a veterinary nurse who deals a lot with dogs with fear/aggression directed towards males - they can tell in MILLISECONDS when a male enters the room.

Instant reaction.
From a DOG.

It's innate in every species to be able to recognise sex. It's how reproduction is possible.
Otherwise the world would be a vast empty rock floating through space with no life left on it, because all the organisms were too fucking stupid to know what a male was and what a female was.

And its why things like this happen.
We know.

Sorry the above video has some bad language for those who may be offended.
But it demonstrates that we cannot ignore our innate recognition of what a male and female are.
It's a base level survival instinct.
And you can't cover it with lipstick and a pink coat.

@GoldenBlue

I think the argument about being unable to tell TW and TM from W and M is typically mooted by males. It has been shown in tests that males are much poorer at identifying sex from pictures than women are, perhaps they do rely on the stereotypical secondary characteristics and dress more than women do.

Genetically it is far more important for women to be able to identify the difference between sexes as males have throughout history been a significant risk factor to women. The same doesn't apply in reverse.

So perhaps a male person posing the how can you tell question is not so much obtuse as genuinely unaware that the majority of women can tell sex irrespective of outward expression of stereotypes

Totally agree, Golden.

OP, I'm female and I can tell the sex of a person who is walking behind me. Especially if it is in the dark, I am alone and that person is walking just a little too close for comfort.

I can spot it a literal mile off.

And I can spot you too.

Oh it's trolling hour, I see. Well, sir, the answer is: One should not have to police the women's room, because males should not enter it. But if they do enter the women's room, then women have the right to question what they are doing there. A "masculine looking" woman will be able to clarify if she is a woman or not. It will be pathetically easy to tell if the individual is a male. Males and females are very easy to distinguish from each other, especially after puberty. If the presumption is that trans womenare allowed into the women's room, then women lose the right to question any male presence. That is why it is important to keep all males out.

I guess that in the imaginary situation that the OP describes, where some people might not be able to distinguish a TW from a W and TM from M, only those of us still able to differentiate them will succesfully mate. That's evolution for you.

@GoldenBlue

I think the argument about being unable to tell TW and TM from W and M is typically mooted by males. It has been shown in tests that males are much poorer at identifying sex from pictures than women are, perhaps they do rely on the stereotypical secondary characteristics and dress more than women do.

Genetically it is far more important for women to be able to identify the difference between sexes as males have throughout history been a significant risk factor to women. The same doesn't apply in reverse.

So perhaps a male person posing the how can you tell question is not so much obtuse as genuinely unaware that the majority of women can tell sex irrespective of outward expression of stereotypes

Yes, it's almost always men who keep querying how can one tell.

They genuinely don't seem to believe that we just can.

So, despite how stupid it is, perhaps it's not surprising that they think categorisation should be based on an unidentifiable and unverifiable inner essence and/or clothes.

It never seems to occur to them quite how supremely irrelevant those are in terms of category definition.

And yes, an argument based on a male who insists he's female, despite you challenging him, so what you gonna do about it, is such a woeful indictment on the entire ideology, I'm amazed anyone ever makes it.

What do they complain about on AiBU? The drip feed to the big reveal?

I've had this conversation with male friends who cannot believe that I can tell people's sex from the way they get out of a car half way across a supermarket on a foggy day.

These male friends do not recognise that I come from a long line of women who avoided MVAWG at least as long enough to breed. Every single one of my great grandmothers managed to not get murdered before she had a baby.

My assumption is that my male friends don't really LOOK at women. They only see tits and teeth, not a person's whole.

It's gross.

I wish I wasn't a heterosexual because men are just so fucking disappointing.

My assumption is that my male friends don't really LOOK at women. They only see tits and teeth, not a person's whole.

This is corroborated by the entirety of the TRA movement, whose adherents repeatedly make clear that they really don't think female bipedal primates (previously known as women) are anything more than background animated barely-sentient props and service units for male humans.

@TheElementsSong

My assumption is that my male friends don't really LOOK at women. They only see tits and teeth, not a person's whole.

This is corroborated by the entirety of the TRA movement, whose adherents repeatedly make clear that they really don't think female bipedal primates (previously known as women) are anything more than background animated barely-sentient props and service units for male humans.

Ha, like a person might create a thread to say

"What you say means that I might be wrong. I don't believe I can ever be wrong. So you have to explain your obvious logic and reality to me in a way that reassures me that I am right and then you should apologise for being wrong, and while you're at it make me a sandwich"

Good point.

@Pluvia

There's a TV series on the BBC called Couples Therapy:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0b8knbw/couples-therapy-series-1-episode-1

The moment one of the individuals was shown (13.20-ish on the video) I knew they were trans. Milliseconds. No need to think about it. Something to do with shoulder width and jawline angle. So did my female partner, watching with me. We wondered afterwards why we didn't read this individual as a strapping woman, but we didn't.

The issues arising in that relationship were really interesting.

Me too! I instantly recognised the male, then I started to think well what is it, what exactly is it that makes them look male even when clearly trying to appear female. I'm only on Episode 6 but so far but agree the issues are interesting.

The TW in the couples therapy video is instantly recognisable as male and seems keen to take on the role of motherhood
I was in the supermarket. I was looking down and turning towards a freezer. I only saw legs in a dress and I knew instantly the person was male

Male feet, ankles, legs, bums, abdomen, chests, arms, hands, necks, faces, hair (balding patterns) are all different. Testosterone even changes finger length (finger next to thumb and next to small finger in different proportions. Therefore chopping an appendage off and sticking silicone on, doesn't work.

OP, if I stick a fur coat on, I'm not a bear am I?

@PrincessNutella

Oh it's trolling hour, I see. Well, sir, the answer is: One should not have to police the women's room, because males should not enter it. But if they do enter the women's room, then women have the right to question what they are doing there. A "masculine looking" woman will be able to clarify if she is a woman or not. It will be pathetically easy to tell if the individual is a male. Males and females are very easy to distinguish from each other, especially after puberty. If the presumption is that trans womenare allowed into the women's room, then women lose the right to question any male presence. That is why it is important to keep all males out.

Okay, I’m genuinely confused by this whole situation. So you find a ‘man’ in the woman’s bathroom, and say “They are a man”. Then what? What happens next?

How quickly we go from "wHaT iZ wOmEn" 🤡 to hanging round the lavs.

Is it because you're full of shit Wombat?

Okay, I’m genuinely confused by this whole situation. So you find a ‘man’ in the woman’s bathroom, and say “They are a man”. Then what? What happens next?

Why is this your question? That's what's "genuinely confusing". You've entirely ignored the content of the post you've replied to and instead just repeated a question about something else. Why not acknowledge the content of the post?

After this thread, which has had hundreds of replies in good faith, are you genuinely not any more clear on what makes a woman a woman?

OP

How you think it worked in the past?

And do you believe a transitioned male who knows that their very presence in a single sex space distresses females who have been traumatised by male abuse will be so disrespectful to females that they will continue to insist on entering that space?

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I've had this conversation with male friends who cannot believe that I can tell people's sex from the way they get out of a car half way across a supermarket on a foggy day.

These male friends do not recognise that I come from a long line of women who avoided MVAWG at least as long enough to breed. Every single one of my great grandmothers managed to not get murdered before she had a baby.

My assumption is that my male friends don't really LOOK at women. They only see tits and teeth, not a person's whole.

It's gross.

I wish I wasn't a heterosexual because men are just so fucking disappointing.

Perhaps the question I’m asking will be clearer if I frame it differently: what observable trait (ie not just a ‘feeling’) do these people have that make them not women? I had assumed that the basis for segregation was on a quantifiable, biological, observable and specific difference between men and women - it was why I subscribed to this ideology in the first place. Is this correct?

genuinely confused by this whole situation

From the sound of it, you seem to have genuinely no experience of growing up using female toilets.