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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall's response to Transgender Trend

236 replies

Eachpeachporch · 09/02/2022 20:11

I wonder if anyone has had the experience of sharing the Transgender Trend schools resource pack and getting Stonewall's response to it as a reply? Does anyone have any thoughts on what Stonewall says here? Any help much appreciated! www.stonewall.org.uk/node/62946

OP posts:
DoubleTweenQueen · 11/02/2022 13:32

@suggestionsplease1 Makes zero difference to me where you are or when you reply, if at all.
You are not answering to the complexity of the wider issue.
I wouldn’t get on to vaccines, if I were you. It’s in my field.

DoubleTweenQueen · 11/02/2022 13:39

Anyone - from the SW comments, does anyone have a link to where this comes from?: "more than two in five trans pupils have attempted to take their own life”?

Thanks.

OldCrone · 11/02/2022 14:00

@DoubleTweenQueen

Anyone - from the SW comments, does anyone have a link to where this comes from?: "more than two in five trans pupils have attempted to take their own life”?

Thanks.

It's probably from the Stonewall school report discussed here:

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

DoubleTweenQueen · 11/02/2022 14:08

@OldCrone Thanks.

sacredfeminina · 11/02/2022 22:21

Ok let me just accept the idea that gender dysphoric children who believe they are 'transgender' are more likely to commit suicide...

What shall we do?

Ok, ok we'll use a preferred pro-noun. Will that be enough? ... They will be happy for a short while, then what is their next demand? Name change? Ok, we'll do it. Anything to make them happy. But they are not happy now they are a 'he', and their name is now John not Joanna. Now they feel even more at odds with their body.

So they take hormones...
So they cut their breasts off...
They have a hysterectomy...
So they de- skin their forearm and get it shaped to a penis like blob on the front of their body...

At what point are they supposed to be happy??

Now they are permenantly unhealthy, they will need life-long medication and support. They are infertile. They cannot have sex. They cannot orgasm. They not actually male, but so not appear female, an outsider for the rest of their lives. There are no known long term effects off all this messing with their (once healthy) bodies.

If Stonewall and Mermaids truly believe that there is such a high rate or suicide.... WHY ON EARTH are they not funding and pushing for more therapuetic, holistic solutions that help these children love the ONLY body they are born with.

It seems stonewall and mermaids are using the suicide rate to push children down the medical pathway mentioned above.

It's very, very strange.

Where is the funding coming from?

--------

Posters on here that are pushing for the belief of a high suicide rate amongst 'trans' kids... What is YOUR suggested solution? The medical slippery slope mentioned above?

DoubleTweenQueen · 12/02/2022 09:55

@sacredfeminina You've put it far better than I could! It's just not rational.
Particularly when gender identity is being taught in schools, and from the earliest ages, and how neuroplastic and suggestible are young brains.
Then social media, peer pressure and social contagion. It's a tsunami of influence - all refuted of course. ROGD is a figment of 'GC bigots'.
Then you consider the 'anti- conversion therapy' bills being brought in country after country, which effectively remove potential safety valves and affirmation the only acceptable route, plus the push for medical intervention at an earlier age, and the usurping of parental rights.

The movement pushes in one direction only, and it's not a thoughtful, holistic, evidence-based course.

Tanith · 12/02/2022 10:30

I went to a girls school many years ago, when the internet was not available and Gay Rights were raging.

In my class, three girls under 15 attempted suicide.
One had recently lost her mother; the other two had been sexually abused and raped.

If only there was the same concern over the widespread abuse of girls that there is over gender identity!

DoubleTweenQueen · 12/02/2022 13:00

@Tanith Yes, it’s a very sad fact that young people are under a myriad of stresses which can lead to poor MH, and have always been.

GI is an additional and unhelpful complication and focus on top of this.

GD could easily be a manifestation of poor mental health, or reduced mental resilience, due to co-morbidities and other factors - an indicator of poor MH, and not the cause it is being championed as.

ReliablyMum · 12/02/2022 14:06

Very interesting thread. Having formerly worked in suicide intervention, many years ago, I'm delurking to say absolutely, stats on suicide can be helpful in forming broadscale prevention strategies from a policy point of view, of course they can. For example, gun control laws can limit the number of suicides by shooting. But not everyone chooses to use a gun. There are other ways and means.

A key part of my training was to understand how important it was not to be guided too much by group stats, as it can lead to assumptions that some may be experiencing suicidal feelings when they are not, and that we may miss others who are not in identified groups that are.

It's rightly been said on several threads, that reasons for suicidal thinking are different for each and every person. For some it may be one life event or experience, for others it may be lots of accumulative things. It's what each event means to someone, and that is entirely individual. We do know that feelings of loss are commonly related to suicide. Making links between specific experiences and likelihood of suicide is unhelpful in the moment, as is telling someone how they should be feeling. What helps most is people feeling able to talk about their suicidal feelings, with someone they can trust, in a non-judgemental way. Ideally someone who is trained to identify indicators of suicidal thinking through behaviours exhibited and able to offer that kind of support. This is where resources to tackle suicide should be focussed IMHO and a lot of work has taken place around this in recent years.

Basically our own thoughts, feelings and opinions on what may trigger suicidal thoughts are largely irrelevant when trying to help someone choose life. It's about listening to people's feelings about suicide itself that is important and can make all the difference. Support for issues around what has led them there is also important, but I feel a distinction does need to be made.

Rushing to "fix" issues is often a natural thing for people who care about someone to want to do, but for someone experiencing suicidal thoughts, being presented with instant solutions, without having their suicidal feelings listened to or acknowledged, can leave a person with those feelings, since they are left feeling not understood. Not sure really where I’m going with this but wanted to get that off my chest! It’s fair to say though, that this is where I have concerns about the current narrative about links to suicide and what might appear to be quick fix solutions.

DoubleTweenQueen · 12/02/2022 14:20

@ReliablyMum Thankyou for delurking. Useful insight.

ReliablyMum · 12/02/2022 20:10

Thank you @DoubleTweenQueen and apols OP, didn't mean to kill your thread, I just feel it's important for anyone with thoughts of suicide to be linked to someone who is trained to assess suicide risk, rather than just signposted somewhere for help with specific issues. Both are required and regardless of my own views on gender identity, I think that is a key element that's missing from Stonewall's response when they are raising issues around suicide.

suggestionsplease1 · 13/02/2022 09:14

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@suggestionsplease1 Makes zero difference to me where you are or when you reply, if at all.
You are not answering to the complexity of the wider issue.
I wouldn’t get on to vaccines, if I were you. It’s in my field.[/quote]
Ok, but you understand the parallels made, right?

That when there is a very large body of evidence it's problematic to just focus on a minority of studies which shore you up in your opinion, or a depend on a critique which comes from a particular political stance when the mast majority of studies are pointing in a different direction.

GC feminists often go on about ideology in the present debate; but this is ideology at work when you ignore the evidence that is out there.

Follow the data, the research, the evidence; look at it in detail yourselves to find the best way forward to support loved ones that are struggling.

OldCrone · 13/02/2022 09:43

Follow the data, the research, the evidence; look at it in detail yourselves to find the best way forward to support loved ones that are struggling.

This is exactly what is being advocated here. Read ReliablyMum's long post from yesterday. What these children need is an understanding of what has brought them to where they are, considering all the factors which could be a cause of their distress. Just focusing on a transgender identity, and suggesting to them that 'fixing' that through unquestioning affirmation is the only possible solution, is doing them a disservice which could be disastrous for them in the long run.

DoubleTweenQueen · 13/02/2022 10:33

@suggestionsplease1 I have looked at a great deal of sources, studies and data, but due to my background am able to review the design, methodology, results, conclusions made, and limitations of all of these, at a deeper level and build a comprehensive overall opinion based on that.
I'm not clear on your conclusions other than young people who identify n a certain way (not detailed) are at higher risk of self-harm, suicide ideation, suicide attempt.

That seems to be a specific focus of causality and solution - affirmation.

I don't agree with that. Others don't agree with that. How you talk about this area does not lead me to consider you have credibility, and I don't mean to be at all rude by that.

It's essential all young people have the support and understanding, in the fullest and most informed way, humanly and scientifically possible.
What is your solution? I'm not sure what that is, tbh.

Datun · 13/02/2022 14:33

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@suggestionsplease1 I have looked at a great deal of sources, studies and data, but due to my background am able to review the design, methodology, results, conclusions made, and limitations of all of these, at a deeper level and build a comprehensive overall opinion based on that.
I'm not clear on your conclusions other than young people who identify n a certain way (not detailed) are at higher risk of self-harm, suicide ideation, suicide attempt.

That seems to be a specific focus of causality and solution - affirmation.

I don't agree with that. Others don't agree with that. How you talk about this area does not lead me to consider you have credibility, and I don't mean to be at all rude by that.

It's essential all young people have the support and understanding, in the fullest and most informed way, humanly and scientifically possible.
What is your solution? I'm not sure what that is, tbh.[/quote]
I'm not surprised you haven't received an answer to that question. Since that poster is telling women on another thread that discomfort with cross dressing men practicing their fetish in women's spaces/in public is 'prejudice'.

I understand that other people hold prejudices that might make them uncomfortable, yes.

In response to "That's good. You understand why other people might be uncomfortable though?"

DoubleTweenQueen · 13/02/2022 14:41

@Datun I see. Makes sense.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2022 21:18

@suggestionsplease1

www.psychiatryadvisor.com/home/topics/gender-dysphoria/study-data-support-the-psychological-benefits-of-gender-affirming-hormone-therapy/

O this one's very topical - commentary on it by Psychiatry Advisor was just posted yesterday. Link to study at the bottom of the page.

So, this is a further interpretation of the large scale self selected via social media survey with an incentive to participate.

While I see that you find it compelling, if I remember seeing the data from the survey, I found that there were quite a number of issues with the results. And, it is a US survey, based on US treatments and other factors quite different to the UK.

I would trust the judgement of UK clinicians who have personal contact and can make judgements over this.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2022 21:25

guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/suli.2007.37.5.527

This is a study from 2007.

Abstract:

Sexual minority status is a key risk factor for suicide among lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth; however, it has not been studied among transgender youth. Fifty-five transgender youth reported on their life-threatening behaviors. Nearly half of the sample reported having seriously thought about taking their lives and one quarter reported suicide attempts. Factors significantly related to having made a suicide attempt included suicidal ideation related to transgender identity is a key risk factor for life-threatening behaviors among transgender youth.

experiences of past parental verbal and physical abuse; and lower body esteem, especially weight satisfaction and thoughts of how others evaluate the youths' bodies. Sexual minority status is a key risk factor

So, this study also makes reference, like some posters on this thread, that there is complex issues at play here. This is expected and known. In fact, these are the very issues that clinicians around the world have expressed deep concern about because they are now often left with little treatment.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2022 21:50

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19359705.2016.1207581

This one is behind a paywall.

www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/lgbt.2019.0338

This one concludes:

The findings from this systematic literature review highlight the importance of considering both individual and contextual factors in the mental health of TGD youth. Given the significance of findings related to the association between depression and gender-based victimization and suicidality, it is critical to advocate for destigmatization of gender identity at a policy level.

This one also pointed out that the studies they reviewed mentioned the other contributing factors for suicide issues. I am not sure that any poster on this thread would dispute that gender identity should be 'distigmatised'.

We are disputing the constant push in the media of the high prevalence of suicide in the UK. We are not disputing that these teenagers have complex mental health issues. More so than other comorbidities - such as eatng disorders.

And again, we are discussing UK numbers.

thirdfiddle · 13/02/2022 22:11

Can't help feeling that Stonewall, Mermaids and friends are doing a lot of damage to the mental health of trans identified children themselves.

It is them telling them they were born in the wrong body because they don't fit the stereotypes. Instead of helping them come to terms with the only body they have.
It is them telling children they need to embark on a gravely damaging medical path. One where they will inevitably not achieve their dream because that isn't possible, and will end up damaged and medicalised for life. Physical health is a big driver of mental health.
(Or alternatively that they don't need to go on any medical path but that being recognised as the sex they obviously are is a dreadful affront and means that someone hates them. )
It is them telling children that anyone who doesn't share their belief that they are magically the opposite sex or no sex at all hates them and is a nasty bigot. Isolating them from loving friends and family.
It is them telling children that fixing gender will make them feel better, and trying to ban exploratory therapy.
It is them telling a group of children that that group is often suicidal, repeatedly asking them if they've ever felt suicidal, in the case of mermaids coaching them to claim to be suicidal to get their own way. Generally seeding the idea.

It would be a wonder if trans identified children didn't have poorer mental health with Stonewall and Mermaids "support".

Now, don't get me wrong, real bullying is also a problem. Homophobic bullies don't tend to be believers in gender ideology. They will go for anyone stereotype nonconforming and being "trans" won't make you an exception. So let's all get together and work on that instead of crying wolf all the time about "transphobia" that turns out to just be a belief that sex exists.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2022 22:31

You might find the correction below relevant to the “Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study” by Richard Bränström, Ph.D., and John E. Pachankis, Ph.D. study you listed.

While this comparison was performed retrospectively and was not part of the original research question given that several other factors may differ between the groups, the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

Helleofabore · 13/02/2022 22:51

I did go through the other links. Some were behind paywalls, most were from the USA which I feel is not really relevant considering the different legal environment and health care system. And quite a few were sourcing data from that same large survey that was self selected, via social media and with an incentive.

Has anyone on this thread disputed the poor mental health that these young people have? I doubt there is one person on this thread who would disagree with improving mental health treatments for the trans community, including timely diagnosis of co-morbities. There are clinicians around the world expressing concern that this poor mental health is not being prioritised in the push for medicalisation. In fact, it is often over looked. This has also been reported by detransitioner statements.

There are also reports from clinicians that even after receiving hormones and surgery patients are suffering poor mental health. That treatments are not necessarily working as patients wished and their mental health is just as poor.

The focus on suicide by these lobby groups is not really giving the full picture. And it should also be very carefully considered in line with the Samaritans advice, which often seems to be ignored.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2022 22:53

co-morbities is of course comorbidities.

suggestionsplease1 · 14/02/2022 11:23

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@suggestionsplease1 I have looked at a great deal of sources, studies and data, but due to my background am able to review the design, methodology, results, conclusions made, and limitations of all of these, at a deeper level and build a comprehensive overall opinion based on that.
I'm not clear on your conclusions other than young people who identify n a certain way (not detailed) are at higher risk of self-harm, suicide ideation, suicide attempt.

That seems to be a specific focus of causality and solution - affirmation.

I don't agree with that. Others don't agree with that. How you talk about this area does not lead me to consider you have credibility, and I don't mean to be at all rude by that.

It's essential all young people have the support and understanding, in the fullest and most informed way, humanly and scientifically possible.
What is your solution? I'm not sure what that is, tbh.[/quote]
Well I think we both agree the other lacks credibility. I find it hard to believe you are competent in reviewing study designs given the bizarre expectation you had for a control for the first study I posted about.

Anyone in the business would know immediately the impossibilities there. These are not experimental design studies - you are not getting 20 people in a lab and giving half of them a drug and half of them a placebo.

The research is pretty clear; social affirmation is instrumental in improving the mental health and well-being of young people experiencing conflict over their gender. A summary of some research below.

nortonchildrens.com/news/social-gender-affirmation-depression-anxiety/

I don't agree that it necessarily leads to a medical pathway, in fact I think the opposite could well be the case. When young people are faced with others refusing to use preferred pronouns and name they might double down on their stance - eg. "What do I have to do to convince others that I am male/female? They won't accept me as a male/female now, but perhaps if I take the hormones and have the surgery they'll have to acknowledge me for who I really am."

I don't like the thought of children going down medical pathways myself (although I recognise there are times when this is important), I would rather nobody felt the need for that, which is why I support social processes to support anyone in their chosen identity. GC feminism conflicts with my thoughts over this, as it directed at making it harder, and the world more unwelcome to people who choose to identify outside of their birth sex. I feel the push back makes medical transitioning more likely, as people feel they face a higher threshold to be recognised in their identity and so they feel obliged to take the additional steps beyond social transitioning.

I believe in giving young people space to explore identities, keeping support high and pressure low, so that they can readily try things out, walk back from IDs if they later feel that they no longer fit without fearing the 'I told you so's' from others.

Of course there are real complexities in these issues and comorbidities, I don't think anyone doubts that. The following link has a good account of this and how these should all be taken into account during therapeutic work.

Vignette below but the whole of the page is very worthwhile reading.

www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/comorbidity-issues-in-in-gender-diverse-youth-the-tangled-web

Case Vignette

To bring light to the issue of comorbidities and the need to understand the external and internal contributing and maintaining factors with TGD individuals, we will use a case example:

“Max” is an affirmed male (assigned female at birth), aged 14 years, who presented to our program to discuss gender-affirming care. Max reported that he had always known he was a boy and had preferred stereotypical masculine clothing, mannerisms, and activities for as long as he could remember. Max was raised by his maternal aunt, “Linda,” who was his sole custodian. Both of Max’s parents had struggled with substances since he was a young child, and they did not have secure housing. None of Max’s family consistently used his chosen name or pronouns, although teachers and peers regularly used them in school. Linda was convinced that Max’s identity was “just a phase” and that the real presenting problem was that he had an eating disorder and was depressed. Linda wanted Max to be admitted to an inpatient unit, as she believed he needed “to get more meds.” She was very upset that the school was “reinforcing ‘her’ issues.”

Upon further discussion alone with the patient, he reported he was restricting food intake because he wanted to stop his menses, as it was very distressing, and he wanted to prevent his chest from growing, as he did not have access to a binder to compress his chest area. He experienced a lot of gender dysphoria when thinking about or discussing his body/bodily functions. Max also reported that he felt like his family would never understand him, use his name or pronouns, or allow him to proceed with any medications to stop his menses, let alone masculinize his body. To “let out” some of his pain, Max would use pencil sharpeners to cut his arms and thighs. Although he felt supported by friends and teachers at school, he felt his family would never accept him, would always make fun of him, and would never support who he is.

Discussion

In this case example, we see cooccurring gender dysphoria (eg, discomfort with body, effects of estrogen-based pubertal development), symptoms of depression, and restrictive eating. Max’s discomfort with his body and attempts to align his body with his gender identity appear to be directly impacting his eating. Therefore, traditional treatment for an eating disorder would not work with Max, and it could potentially lead to more gender dysphoria, depressive symptoms, and self-injurious behavior. Relatedly, Max’s nonaffirmation at home, negative expectations about his future ability to identify as male in the eyes of his family, and negative expectations about treatment appear to be directly related to some of his depressive symptoms and self-injurious behaviors. In addition to a traditional cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical therapy, or assertive community therapy approach, understanding the GMSRM and educating the family members on the importance of using chosen name/pronouns to decrease depression and suicidal ideation would be imperative to share, as would the general importance of family and peer support.

OldCrone · 14/02/2022 11:41

The research is pretty clear; social affirmation is instrumental in improving the mental health and well-being of young people experiencing conflict over their gender.

I think if we are going to have a discussion about this, we need some clear definitions. What do you mean by 'young people experiencing conflict over their gender'?

It seems to me that the idea that people 'have' a gender is problematic in itself. Why does anyone need or want to 'have' a gender?

We all have a sex and until recently, we were making progress towards a world where people no longer had to fit into gender boxes to live their lives the way they wanted to, regardless of their sex. Now the gender boxes are back, with the only difference that people can choose which one to inhabit and make modifications to their bodies accordingly so that sex and gender 'match' as they did in the past.

Wouldn't you agree that we are making problems for these children by telling them to choose a gender box rather than just living as who they are?