Stonewall's response to Transgender Trend

[Eachpeachporch]

I wonder if anyone has had the experience of sharing the Transgender Trend schools resource pack and getting Stonewall's response to it as a reply? Does anyone have any thoughts on what Stonewall says here? Any help much appreciated! www.stonewall.org.uk/node/62946

@suggestionsplease1

There are plenty of good research studies out there using qualitative approaches to understand trans peoples experiences, you just need to look. If anyone thinks this is not the case they clearly do not know what they are talking about.

eg.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31062669/

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29981953/

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.598455/full

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13811118.2021.2003273

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6798808/

Wehn you get through those I'll post a few dozen more if you like.

Only the first of those seems to be relevant to this discussion, but I can't find a link to a non-paywalled full text version for the first one.

The participants in the second one were aged 26-52, and only two identified as trans. Full text here: voices-tmc.net/tmc2014/library/122-011.pdf

The title of the third one (a review paper) is "A Qualitative Scoping Review of Transgender and Gender Non-conforming People's Physical Healthcare Experiences and Needs", so not about trans children and young people and suicide.

Only 8 participants (aged 16-25) in the fourth one were transgender or non-binary.

The fifth one is another review: "Suicidal Thoughts and Behaviors Among Transgender Adults in Relation to Education, Ethnicity, and Income: A Systematic Review", so not about children and adolescents.

If you're going to post more links perhaps you could check first whether they're relevant to this discussion.

@suggestionsplease1 Ah - perhaps that's where the issue is. An introduction to stats course won't give you the tools to recognise robust scientific study design and identification of suitable controls, so perhaps that's where you've gone awry.

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@suggestionsplease1 Ah - perhaps that's where the issue is. An introduction to stats course won't give you the tools to recognise robust scientific study design and identification of suitable controls, so perhaps that's where you've gone awry.[/quote]
Stats course would cover it in passing and would make clear the issue to most but research methodologies would be best.

What control would you like to see for survey questions relating to how use of preferred pronouns and name improve mental health for young trans-identified people, out of interest?

Are you going to ask young people who have no problems with their gender identity how their mental health is impacted when people call them by their preferred pronouns?

Do you see how non-sensical that is?

Shit cloud cuckoo land analogy btw. But it's what I've come to expect of people that need to rely on made up shit in order to try and destroy women's rights and children's bodies.

Yep.

If you're going to post more links perhaps you could check first whether they're relevant to this discussion.

Quite.

@OldCrone have a read through some of these perhaps. O and everyone please do post all the links to research you have which supports the views you hold.

guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/suli.2007.37.5.527

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19359705.2016.1207581

www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/lgbt.2019.0338

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X1630146X

journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0886260520915554

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0890856717303167

bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2

psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-52280-009

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X16303585

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X14006934

publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and

www.publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-split/142/4/e20174218/76767/Transgender-Adolescent-Suicide-Behavior

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1743609516000801

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X1930922X

www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/lgbt.2017.0259

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032718317920

www.psychiatryadvisor.com/home/topics/gender-dysphoria/study-data-support-the-psychological-benefits-of-gender-affirming-hormone-therapy/

O this one's very topical - commentary on it by Psychiatry Advisor was just posted yesterday. Link to study at the bottom of the page.

@suggestionsplease1 I linked to a longitudinal study of 139 boys earlier, demonstrating vast majority desisting from gender dysphoria (88%). 64% grew up to be non-dysphoric gay young men.

Your last citation is a single time point. A social media questionnaire. Patients will naturally feel more positive as a result of having their issues addressed, a clinical pathway identified. Particularly those taking testosterone will feel as though they can take on the world.

@suggestionsplease1 The interesting bit will be what they feel and experience in 6months, a year, 2 years, 5 years, 10. There are a growing group of transitioners taking hormones for some time - are they being followed up medium to long-term? And the girls having 'top 'surgery', and testosterone- where is the data on their mental health trajectory, and there surveyed health experience?

All adolescents experience some form of Identity disorientation - some more painfully than others. There is an inherent mental health risk and suicide risk due to multiple factors in this cohort. Does 'gender identity' itself exacerbate this risk? Does not affirming exacerbate risk, more than say bullying or realising you're same-sex- attracted, or abuse, or neuro-diversity, or other things which can trigger acute feelings of anxiety in young people?

Your focussing on simplistic superficial information where the only factor focussed on is 'gender identity', when there are possibly (probably) multi-variant factors which contribute to any young person's feeling and understanding of self

It is my understanding that the ideology if gender identity is putting additional pressure and stress on young people as an additional major risk factor to their mental health. It is not a solution.

It's not possible to change sex, only imitate, and in doing so, put oneself through immense mental and emotional stress, before taking into account nullifying surgery. Pronouns and nicknames are meaningless, apart from being psychological precursors to a very dangerous and destructive pathway.

How do you imagine the longer-term outcomes will be for transitioners? Where is the medium to long-term data on that?

@suggestionsplease1 And as for the announcement of studies involving metadata trawling from multiple small studies - what a farce! - I heard a good quite this morning: "if you torture data sufficiently, it will tell you whatever you want"

*quote

Is the Biggs paper from January 22 not peer reviewed? How can you see that?

Researchers are of course looking at the long term picture - I think some of the links I posted refer to research in this area, but of course it is an ongoing process. There is no present reason to believe, as far as I am aware - again please post the (robust, well-designed) research saying otherwise, that agreeing to use preferred pronouns and name causes any harm whatsoever in later life.

You're incorrect to say that the research focuses just on gender identity; on the contrary it is very well known and researched that other factors come into play, mental health, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, family support, childhood trauma, education level, income, and there are many studies that analyse these factors alongside gender identity using study designs that allow them to determine the influence of gender identity on completed suicides/ suicide attempts/ suicide ideation within a very complex overall picture.

To my mind, the best approach is to reflect on the overall body of evidence, and the direction it points to for enabling the best possible mental health and wellbeing for people who are trans-identified.

If you've got 95 good studies out of 100 pointing in one direction (and studies carried out all over the world, by hundreds of different organisations and researchers), then why would you want to ignore that evidence?

Surveys: m.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

[quote suggestionsplease1]@OldCrone have a read through some of these perhaps. O and everyone please do post all the links to research you have which supports the views you hold.

guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/suli.2007.37.5.527

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19359705.2016.1207581

www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/lgbt.2019.0338

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X1630146X

journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0886260520915554

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0890856717303167

bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2

psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-52280-009

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X16303585

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X14006934

publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and

www.publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-split/142/4/e20174218/76767/Transgender-Adolescent-Suicide-Behavior

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1743609516000801

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054139X1930922X

www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/lgbt.2017.0259

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032718317920[/quote]
Did you read and evaluate any of these?

Citation:

1. Based on 55 ’transgender youth’ - no information as to whether any are diagnosed GD, or on any treatment regimen. Abstract alone mentions factors of suicidal ideation related to transgender identity, their own esteem in body image and also how others perceive them physically, weight - ooh, any parallels with ED? 'Physical and verbal abuse’ - no detail. Sexual minority status is cited as key risk factor, however - just going on the abstract.

2. Suicide ideation higher in females. Also higher in F & M who feel ‘different gender’ to F & M. "Perceived burdensomeness and thwarted belongingness were significantly related to suicidal ideation and/or suicide attempts. Experiences of painful, provocative, and harmful events and acquired capability significantly predicted suicide attempts” - what would you suggest is an holistic approach to supporting these troubled young people?

3. Superficial (mine) quote: Consistent with minority stress theory, this systematic review demonstrates that identification as TGD is associated with increased environmental stressors, highlighting the importance of considering both individual and contextual factors in the development of mental health interventions for TGD youth. Given the significance of findings related to the association between both depression and gender-based victimization and suicidal behavior, it is critical to advocate for the destigmatization of noncisgender identities through policy-level change. - I don’t see a recommendation of affirmation and medicalisation. I see a multifactorial issue for which one-size does not necessarily fit all and that mental health interventions are required. Is that not conversion therapy though? :O

everyone please do post all the links to research you have which supports the views you hold.

I haven't done any research in this area, so I don't have any research to post links to.

What do you mean by 'the views you hold'? I'm trying to understand more about this, including answers to the following questions:

Are children and adolescents who identify as transgender and/or who have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria at increased risk of suicidal behaviour? I'd like to see any evidence which indicates whether or not they are.

If they are at increased risk, how does this compare to other children/adolescents who are LGB and/or have been diagnosed with mental health problems?

What is the underlying cause of the increased risk of suicidality in children and adolescents who have gender dysphoria? Obviously we know suicidal behaviour is complex and unlikely to be due to one single cause, but what I'm looking for here is some research which looks at all the issues leading to this behaviour, some of which could be those which we know to be correlated to transgender identification in children and adolescents, such as internalised homophobia and being victims of sexual abuse.

Do any of your references cover that? There's a lot to wade through in your list just to find it's not covered at all. I assume you would also be interested in an answer to this last question, as obviously what we all want is to reduce incidence of suicidal behaviour, so identifying the underlying causes would be a useful step in this direction.

I'd actually find it easier if you posted your references in a proper citation format rather than just a link. Seeing the author name(s), title and date would help people to see instantly whether a reference might be relevant or not. Also many of your links just go to an abstract and then those of us without access via a university have to search on google scholar for a full text link anyway, as we would with a proper citation.

4. Interesting - data trawling; findings based on 15 citations. 2016 publication, revising estimates for TG youth at 0.17-1.3% - how does that compare to current figures? And numbers going down the affirmation and medicalised pathway? Is there any cause for concern here? Discuss.

@OldCrone Yes, good point.
I would also like to see social media surveys - or far better, clinical data - following cohorts through taking medical history, presentation, diagnosis, hormone treatment, surgery, follow-up at regular time intervals up to at least 5yrs to see what level of self-harm, suicide ideation, suicide attempts there are at each stage of the process - including all outcomes, including de-transition.

The equivalent pathway from diagnosis through psychological support alone, if possible, including desistance.

And I would be focussed more on under 25s, at presentation, collated from smaller age-ranges within that group.

If you've got 95 good studies out of 100

I very much doubt, in my personal experience of TRA endorsed "research", that there are 95 methodologically good studies in this area, or they would be used occasionally, rather than the shite they generally produce as evidence for their agenda.

Surely it's a good thing if there are not large numbers of gender dysphoric or gender-questioning children completing or attempting suicide or feeling suicidal ideation? Why are some people so determined to argue otherwise?

(Rhetorical question; I know why.)

If they are at increased risk, how does this compare to other children/adolescents who are LGB and/or have been diagnosed with mental health problems?

Agree that seeing this research would be helpful. So far what I can see is that LGBT people are possibly at higher risk as a population. The trans cohort ideally needs to be disaggregated. Mental health issues are one of the number one antecedents of suicide. Many children who identify as having gender incongruence also have mental health issues.

@VeryLongBeeeeep

Surely it's a good thing if there are not large numbers of gender dysphoric or gender-questioning children completing or attempting suicide or feeling suicidal ideation? Why are some people so determined to argue otherwise?

(Rhetorical question; I know why.)

It wouldn’t be surprising if GD is a big risk factor, similar to other prevalent risk factors in child and adolescent development, but it’s defining best clinical practice to support these particular young people that is the key, rather than attempting to manipulate the fact to validate the demand for faster affirming intervention. That’s not rational.

@DoubleTweenQueen

You may have the day off work but I don't! So forgive me if I can't go into the detail that you might hope for.

'Thwarted belongness' which you refer to in point 2 - I imagine this would relate to the extent to which the young person feels accepted and recognised in their stated gender ID.

'Environmental stressors' and 'destigmatization of noncisgender identities' again these issues likely relate to the degree of acceptance felt by a person in their identity, so for eg. not being welcome in the toilet matching your gender ID, refusal of parents / teachers to acknowledge your gender ID, operating in a culture where trans /non-binary IDs are frowned upon.

Abstracts will provide you with a good summary of research, but yes, to examine in detail you will need to access the full texts, can't help you there, sorry.

It's good to examine research thoroughly, but it's also important to bear in mind over-arching themes that are developing out of research.

Take studies into Covid, for example. There will be many, many studies out there that showing the effectiveness of vaccines. But some of them will have problems with them, others may say unusual things that go against the main body of evidence, others will indeed highlight issues that need to be examined further. But taken as a whole what is the overall picture? How do you choose to process that information?

There are of course people who choose to ignore the main body of information and evidence and focus solely on those less well-thought of studies telling them what they want to hear, because it justifies their preconceptions, biases and behaviours and allows them refuge from cognitive dissonance.

I think it's important to consider the evidence as a whole; there is not a study out there that can not be nit-picked away by someone so minded.

It wouldn’t be surprising if GD is a big risk factor, similar to other prevalent risk factors in child and adolescent development, but it’s defining best clinical practice to support these particular young people that is the key, rather than attempting to manipulate the fact to validate the demand for faster affirming intervention. That’s not rational.

Yes, exactly.