Stonewall's response to Transgender Trend

[Eachpeachporch]

I wonder if anyone has had the experience of sharing the Transgender Trend schools resource pack and getting Stonewall's response to it as a reply? Does anyone have any thoughts on what Stonewall says here? Any help much appreciated! www.stonewall.org.uk/node/62946

well said sacredfeminina.

and its funny that adult men can be whatever they say they are, but kids especially girls are encouraged to have lifelong medical treatment.

its almost as if the position pushed is that man can be gender fluid they can have their cake and eat it do as the man says.

but girls who step outside their gender role by not playing with the right toys, not wearing the right clothing or fancying the right sex are faulty and need repairing by trying the best medical intervention available to make them into as near to men as possible.

we have not come that far since opinionated women where called hysterical have we.

@OldCrone

To keep publically advertising that gender dysphoric kids commit suicide is to create that reality by making mentally unwell children believe that they will want to commit suocide of they are not affirmed. It is planting a seed.

If there was an increase in the number of suicides, that would sort of prove their point.

Children do repeat the threat of suicide as part if the 'coning out pricess' - so I am not this, I am this; my new name and pronouns are these; I need you to do this - for my mental health; might not state openly - "if you don't do this I will kill myself" but share things from SM suggesting sane. Part if the package. It's the veiled threat that this movement knows gets results - schools are obliged then to call in counseling/SS if there's a whiff of it In my direct experience, it is "suicide ideation" and a well known MO with this movement
I don't believe poor mental health in kids demonstrating GD are any more at risk of suicide than any other young person experiencing poor mental health due to or manifesting in other ways - ED, being bullied etc. I have seen no scientific evidence for it at all. I have seen evidence that it is not true, however, and that suicide risk is no greater for GD. I would suggest that encouraging young people to believe they are in the wrong body or otherwise there's something not normal about them, is damaging to their sense of self at a time when this is already manifest as a normal result of adolescence. That it is additional stress and emotional disquiet that can itself lead to poor mental health. Chicken and egg scenario.

Great posts sacred 👏

I do remember a terrible case of a female child who'd transitioned to live as a boy who took their own life. They'd been bereaved of their mother beforehand. Bereavement really is a huge risk factor for suicide.

My son has threatened suicide for years at school, because the school were not doing what he wanted (and his father threatened suicide constantly as part of his hissy fits).

my son got kicked out of school for weeks at a time over safe guarding issues because the school cant watch him all the time, they dont have the staff, he's disruptive etc, this mainly happened when he used to stand at the top of the stairs and threaten to throw himself down them.

He didnt get pandered too, just another SEN kid, he got sent to a special school for 2 terms but has started making the odd threat in secondary school now, they are not phased by it and his threats and behaviour have done nothing to speed up CAMHs assessing him as he's been waiting for a ASD and ADHD assessment for 6 years.

so I would like to know why all these organisations are so frightened of the Trans kids threatening suicide and why that threat works to get them pandered too, while everyone else is ignored.

@Linguini

No experience sorry but this is another Stonewall style response and it's hilarious. Worth a recirculation in my opinion.

Fuck. That person hits a whole new level of stupid.

I don't believe poor mental health in kids demonstrating GD are any more at risk of suicide than any other young person experiencing poor mental health due to or manifesting in other ways - ED, being bullied etc. I have seen no scientific evidence for it at all. I have seen evidence that it is not true, however, and that suicide risk is no greater for GD.

This seems to be what the evidence suggests.

I wonder if the people who promote the idea that children with gender dysphoria have a high suicide rate (Mermaids, Stonewall etc) are aware that the effect of suggesting that these children are likely to be suicidal could lead to an increase in suicides and attempts.

That person hits a whole new level of stupid.

It looked like fear to me. Too scared to read what TT had to say in case they decided it was something they should have read 10 years ago, before all the testosterone treatment.

Thanks everyone. I will certainly flag the suicide issue. What also gets me is the bullying. Who says that a non-affirmative/ watchful waiting approach is synonymous with bullying? The pro trans lobby seem to paint as as monsters. I actually care about children and young people's wellbeing.

What also bugs me is the following quote: "Creating a school environment that allows trans young people to be happy and healthy doesn’t have to be difficult or scary". I don't oppose their approach because it is difficult or scary. I have intellectual objections. Also, what we think is in the child's best interests in terms of their long term health and happiness differs.

I did point out all the endorsements and awards of Arai's work when I sent it. That was not commented on. Instead I was sent the Stonewall's response and a link to some training on how to be a better LGBTQI+ ally.

It wasn't for a school. Sorry, I don't want to be more specific in case it outs my institution (and me!)

To add - I have also not found any evidence for the improvement in mental health for young people who have been affirmed and go on to medicalisation. Short-term perhaps, and the effects of testosterone itself in girls - but not at 1, 2, 5, 10, 15 yrs post-medicalisation and/or surgery.
The data isn’t out there - mostly because the younger cohort is still quite new, but also I’m not sure it’s being looked into actively?

That would be essential information, and to be collated and examined from the outset, to ensure affirmation and medicalisation is the correct path, and also to gain insight into how early psychological support and analysis can be improved to capture young people for whom affirmation and medicalisation would actually be the worst possible pathway. SW & Mermaids are not taking account of stories from de-transitioners - in fact they are generally vilified.
Why is that?

@OldCrone

That person hits a whole new level of stupid.

It looked like fear to me. Too scared to read what TT had to say in case they decided it was something they should have read 10 years ago, before all the testosterone treatment.

You have a fair point. I suspect you're right. They come across very badly, but it would make sense that it's actually fear that's being projected.

The issue is children and young people who identify as trans are not reliably having this identity recorded in suicide figures.

what this means is:

1. Trans identified young person dies by suicide.

1. Parents, next of kin "Please record their death as **, their birth name. We do not accept they had a trans status, they perhaps were questioning and trying out different things with their friends, but of course they lived the majority of their life as **, so it is right that this is how it is recorded".

1. Trans-identified young person is not recognised as trans-identified on relevant documentation.

1. GC feminism proponents look at recorded stats and say "See, we told you that there is no issue with suicide and trans-identified young people".

It's a bit fucked-up, isn't it.

Alongside this goes a very concerted effort to obscure information about young trans people and suicide because there is natural concern that this information might influence other young people in similar situations and who are vulnerable to suicide. So that's what we saw yesterday when that news article was taken down.

So I understand that process and the most important thing is preventing further suicides, but of course this process obscures the reality of trans identified people and suicide and makes it appear as a non-issue because there is little publicity and public awareness.

@suggestionsplease1
Your posts are pure supposition.
There is no evidence.
Which comes first - GD or poor mental health?
Why would someone who is being affirmed and supported as TG then take their own life?
Why is ‘Trans-identifying’ your overriding concern and focus?
Are you suggesting that ’trans-identifying youth’ need to be placed on suicide-watch? What is the main trigger for your suggested phenomenon? Deep-rooted MH issues? Trauma? Gender dysphoria itself? Feeling disconnected? Staring into an abyss of medicalisation and potentially surgery? Being confirmed in their self-loathing?

I imagine transphobic bullying would be top of your list, also perhaps restriction to accessing puberty blockers sufficiently early?

So, what are your suggestions for tackling something that has not been demonstrated?

@suggestionsplease1

The issue is children and young people who identify as trans are not reliably having this identity recorded in suicide figures.

what this means is:

1. Trans identified young person dies by suicide.

1. Parents, next of kin "Please record their death as **, their birth name. We do not accept they had a trans status, they perhaps were questioning and trying out different things with their friends, but of course they lived the majority of their life as **, so it is right that this is how it is recorded".

1. Trans-identified young person is not recognised as trans-identified on relevant documentation.

1. GC feminism proponents look at recorded stats and say "See, we told you that there is no issue with suicide and trans-identified young people".

It's a bit fucked-up, isn't it.

Alongside this goes a very concerted effort to obscure information about young trans people and suicide because there is natural concern that this information might influence other young people in similar situations and who are vulnerable to suicide. So that's what we saw yesterday when that news article was taken down.

So I understand that process and the most important thing is preventing further suicides, but of course this process obscures the reality of trans identified people and suicide and makes it appear as a non-issue because there is little publicity and public awareness.

You state that as if there wasn't an inquest into every child suicide.

We also know Stonewall''s numbers are rubbish because if we work in the other direction we can see that there quite simply aren't enough child suicides to make those numbers work. Once again: every suicide is referred to the coroner and there is an inquest

Here's the ONS response detailing that they do not have access to accurate statistics on this issue:
__

You asked
Please provide information regarding the suicide rate for known transgender/gender dysphoric persons of any age between the years 2010 to 2017 (inclusive). If possible, please also provide official figures regarding the attempted suicide rate for the same group mentioned above.

We said
Thank you for your request.

The information we hold on deaths is limited to what is recorded on the death certificate by a doctor or information about the cause and circumstances of the death provided by a coroner.

Special extracts and tabulations of mortality data for England and Wales are available to order (subject to legal frameworks, disclosure control, resources and agreements of costs, where appropriate). We can provide the number of suicides per year by key variables such as age, sex and geographical area. Such enquiries should be made to: [email protected]. We recommend that you contact the Mortality Analysis team directly in order to discuss your data requirements in more detail.

Detailed information on whether the person was transgender or gender dysphoric is not generally available. We do not hold information on attempted suicides.

As the only information that can be provided is already available to you via this route, we consider that s.21(1) applies to this request and the information does not have to be supplied under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act. S.21(1) is an absolute exemption and no consideration of the public interest test needs to be applied.
_

It's incredibly easy to refute this ridiculous suicide myth.

The fact is that in Sweden, the number of children identifying as dysphoric has fallen incredibly sharply - by over 65% back in 2019 and still dwindling. Sweden has banned puberty blockers for kids.

Yet there has been no corresponding increase in suicides.

Very strong large-scale evidence that affirmation doesn't affect suicide risk and Stonewall are making it up as they go along.

@suggestionsplease1

So without evidence, how can you claim any link?

This implies that the writer thinks he has found accurate stats on attempted suicide and completed suicide for GIDS in this time frame, but of course he does not have accurate stats. He has the stats on what has been reported to him, and these are the figures that GIDS have recorded - that have been reported to them (by who - the parents, the children themseves?)

I also believe he has discussed this with clinicians directly.

Do you honestly believe that clinicians would not know the number of patients that suddenly don’t come to appointments? If the clinicians themselves are also reporting the numbers are no higher than other very vulnerable teenagers with similar mental health, I would expect there might be something to consider.

Rather than only reading a lobby group’s claims. And just how much of their claim has been based on the incredibly over used self selected and incentivised survey done by the Trevor project that we see posted here so often. With incredibly poor methodology as well and based on USA cultural aspects.

And as has been brought up already. The current research and current feedback from across the world is saying that the current agenda pushed of affirming only is failing these young transitioners.

There is also research that shows that the rates of suicide during or after treatment is of more concern. Because of the lack of focus the current affirming only treatment has on dealing with comorbidities. And with the regrets of surgeries and hormone therapy for various reasons.

I am sure we can find the studies and the papers. They have been stashed on the ‘Break it down’ thread. The one about suicide after treatment was even presented as a ‘gotcha’ by an activist who thought it presented something it did not really say.

So I am concerned by posters claiming that they know better than the clinicians and the organizations who would be collecting the data - coroners included. I mean Tavistock spokespeople also state rates are no higher than comparative groups.

If posters are really arguing these figures, and organisations are incorrect, I look forward to actual original sourced studies and peer reviewed papers that back up this.

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@suggestionsplease1
Your posts are pure supposition.
There is no evidence.
Which comes first - GD or poor mental health?
Why would someone who is being affirmed and supported as TG then take their own life?
Why is ‘Trans-identifying’ your overriding concern and focus?
Are you suggesting that ’trans-identifying youth’ need to be placed on suicide-watch? What is the main trigger for your suggested phenomenon? Deep-rooted MH issues? Trauma? Gender dysphoria itself? Feeling disconnected? Staring into an abyss of medicalisation and potentially surgery? Being confirmed in their self-loathing?

I imagine transphobic bullying would be top of your list, also perhaps restriction to accessing puberty blockers sufficiently early?

So, what are your suggestions for tackling something that has not been demonstrated?[/quote]
Well, one of my suggestions would be to look at well-designed and peer-reviewed studies on this issue and to implement what they have found helps to reduce poor mental health and suicidality in young trans people:

news.utexas.edu/2018/03/30/name-use-matters-for-transgender-youths-mental-health/

@suggestionsplease1

Here's the ONS response detailing that they do not have access to accurate statistics on this issue: ________

You asked
Please provide information regarding the suicide rate for known transgender/gender dysphoric persons of any age between the years 2010 to 2017 (inclusive). If possible, please also provide official figures regarding the attempted suicide rate for the same group mentioned above.

We said
Thank you for your request.

The information we hold on deaths is limited to what is recorded on the death certificate by a doctor or information about the cause and circumstances of the death provided by a coroner.

Special extracts and tabulations of mortality data for England and Wales are available to order (subject to legal frameworks, disclosure control, resources and agreements of costs, where appropriate). We can provide the number of suicides per year by key variables such as age, sex and geographical area. Such enquiries should be made to: [email protected]. We recommend that you contact the Mortality Analysis team directly in order to discuss your data requirements in more detail.

Detailed information on whether the person was transgender or gender dysphoric is not generally available. We do not hold information on attempted suicides.

As the only information that can be provided is already available to you via this route, we consider that s.21(1) applies to this request and the information does not have to be supplied under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act. S.21(1) is an absolute exemption and no consideration of the public interest test needs to be applied.
_

It says you need to contact the mortality analysis direct with this enquiry. Even then the fact ONS may not hold specific data does not mean that data is unavailable. There is an awful lot of data ONS doesn't hold but other places do (such as the records of coroner inquests themselves or the NHS database).

The reason Sweden often features in these studies is because they collect large cohort data on all their citizens. It is from this that we know the rate of suicide post transition over the longer term is many times higher than the general population. Which suggests transition does not address underlying mental health difficulties.

@suggestionsplease1 That’s a survey of gender dysphoric youth regarding what would make them feel happier. The only science bit is the crunching the responses/‘data’.

How many of the respondents had a clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria?

I should add .......to be able to label the respondents as Transgender Youths?

Well, one of my suggestions would be to look at well-designed and peer-reviewed studies on this issue and to implement what they have found helps to reduce poor mental health and suicidality in young trans people:

Could you provide the link for the actual study. From that report I can only work out it was a survey of just 129 individuals in America. No ages, sex or other relevant variables that may be confounders are provided. We have no idea how the group is split but quite quickly we are getting small numbers. We also know that correlation is not causation.

As you say well-designed studies would be helpful but from the information in the article provided this study is not that.

@suggestionsplease1
This is a large longitudinal study of boys with gender identity disorder:
www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

It’s presumptuous to label children and young people as ‘Transgender’.