Stonewall's response to Transgender Trend

[Eachpeachporch]

I wonder if anyone has had the experience of sharing the Transgender Trend schools resource pack and getting Stonewall's response to it as a reply? Does anyone have any thoughts on what Stonewall says here? Any help much appreciated! www.stonewall.org.uk/node/62946

2. Parents, next of kin "Please record their death as , their birth name. We do not accept they had a trans status, they perhaps were questioning and trying out different things with their friends, but of course they lived the majority of their life as , so it is right that this is how it is recorded".

Have you any idea how deaths are recorded? A parent couldn't just make a request to record their child's death by any name other than that which is on their official documents.

And what do you mean by 'lived the majority of their life as *?

@suggestionsplease1 What is your reasoning for wanting to prove that there is a high rate of suicide amongst children with gender dysphoria?

The ONS have not provided data about this and there are no other impartial sources which indicate that this high rate of suicide or attempted suicide exists.

In the absence of any evidence, I'll keep an open mind. You, however, seem very invested in wanting to prove that the suicide rate is high, despite the lack of evidence. Why is that?

@OldCrone I would cynically suggest it might have something to do with more people becoming aware of, and rejecting the basis of. gender identity ideology, particularly for young people.

Threatening to commit suicide to get what you want doesn't mean you're suicidal...

What is your reasoning for wanting to prove that there is a high rate of suicide amongst children with gender dysphoria?

And I question the motivation to assign the reasons for these deaths on trans issues.

We know, as parents and from studies from peer reviewed data that many of these young people and children have incredibly complex mental health comorbidities.

Taking this simplistic direction is not helping these children and young people to get the level of care they need. It really is politicising an agenda that is causing harm by focusing on one issue.

We also know this because detransitioners are telling us they had these complex issues and they now feel those issues were not treated.

Who benefits from using these statistics in this way? The patients? I am yet to see any study that shows this. Strangely when it has really depended on this data being robust enough to be used in court, there was nothing. Has something been released since?

Here is the link to the study I referred to:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6165713/

@DoubleTweenQueen

To add - I have also not found any evidence for the improvement in mental health for young people who have been affirmed and go on to medicalisation. Short-term perhaps, and the effects of testosterone itself in girls - but not at 1, 2, 5, 10, 15 yrs post-medicalisation and/or surgery. The data isn’t out there - mostly because the younger cohort is still quite new, but also I’m not sure it’s being looked into actively?

That would be essential information, and to be collated and examined from the outset, to ensure affirmation and medicalisation is the correct path, and also to gain insight into how early psychological support and analysis can be improved to capture young people for whom affirmation and medicalisation would actually be the worst possible pathway. SW & Mermaids are not taking account of stories from de-transitioners - in fact they are generally vilified.
Why is that?

There is evidence that trans women maintain male offending patterns, I would have thought if it doesnt affect how they behave, i.e the criminal ones dont have female offending patterns after a few years on hormones. then I would expect the same sort of reflection in mental health as it doesnt seem to change them that much in terms of behaviour and behaviour is a outward consequences of the mental state.

@Linguini

Threatening to commit suicide to get what you want doesn't mean you're suicidal...

True but no one wants to take the risk.

sadly the most common signs tend to be ignored the main ones being someone who is depressed suddenly being more upbeat and happy.

your right most people dont shout about it but self harm can be a precursor weather thats drink/drugs, self harm or cosmetic surgery.

Here's Dr David Bell talking (with his years of expertise) about the catastrophic outcomes for children where therapists prioritise treating gender "issues" and ignore their numerous co morbidities. These children end up as adults with their self harm, eating disorders, anxiety and depression, suicidal ideation etc ignored and completely untreated.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09yk7dh

@suggestionsplease1 That tells us, at a single timepoint, that a subset of a small group of youths (15-21 - no breakdown of ages) felt more positive and affirmed in their identity when referred to by their chosen name. 129 identified as ‘transgender’ or ‘gender non-conforming’ - how many of each? It makes a difference. Only 74 of this mixed group reported a different chosen name.

How is this indicative of anything? How does it lead to "transgender kids at higher risk of suicide”?

We had nicknames when I was a kid too and using them was a term of belonging to your friendship group - of affection and acceptance.

I don’t understand what import you are putting on this?

I'm going to give an analogy to make it easier to convey the problems with Transgender Trend's critique of studies on suicidality and completed suicide.

Imagine there is a rare ethnic minority that comprises about 1% of our population. The people come from an island we've never heard of before (I say this to make this analogy devoid of real-life preconceptions people hold).

They're living amongst us and we're worried that their population is at particular risk of domestic abuse. So we try to do some research to find out about this with the hope that this knowledge helps develop pathways that offer increased support and lessen domestic abuse.

So we try to do surveys to find out more, but this minority comprises such a small percent of the overall population that we're always going to have issues with the statistical power of the research - this is inevitable; we can't just magic more of this population up as they just don't exist in bigger numbers.

This minority are kind of wary of us as well, they're experienced general discrimination in society and are fairly mistrustful of surveys, so a lot of this population are reluctant to come forward, but thankfully we do get some and they answer the questions and sometimes we're lucky enough to get rich, qualitative data from interviews, which tells us more about their experiences.

So as researchers we think, this has been really hard to get evidence on because of these difficulties that are out of our control, but, here we've got this information, we've got some with good statistical significance, it is in line with what we thought and the evidence we've got suggests this population are at particular risk of domestic abuse. Our research has also given us some ideas about support that can be offered and strategies that might help minimise domestic abuse.

But then the Men's Rights Activists come in, and they say "Hey, wait up, you haven't got any good evidence at all!! The numbers are too small, those people that answered the survey self-selected and were not chosen at random. And we think they're all lying anyway to push a particular agenda. In short, there is no evidence this population is at increased risk of domestic abuse over any other."

Do you agree with those Men's Rights Activists in this analysis?

This is how TransgenderTrend are approaching the studies they have analysed, and it is shameful and dangerous. When read by people who are not in business of evaluating studies their approach can seem convincing.

But they are dismissing good evidence that does exist - there are hundreds of good quality but small studies, and meta-analysis and systematic review approaches are in the process of synthesizing the evidence.

@suggestionsplease1 There also doesn’t appear to be any sort of control group? - comparable cohort for age range. I question the use of % when looking at surveyed information?

Your posts are pure supposition.
There is no evidence.
Which comes first - GD or poor mental health?

Until we see some evidence that there are higher than usual numbers of children with gender identity issues committing suicide, there is no reason to assume this. TRAs can't just make it up based on hypotheticals.

Have you any idea how deaths are recorded? A parent couldn't just make a request to record their child's death by any name other than that which is on their official documents.

Has also ignored the key point that there would be an inquest in the event of a suicide.

In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, an inquest will be held in order to reach a verdict on the cause of death. The inquest is held in a courtroom – however it is not a trial and it is not about seeking to blame anyone. Only a minority of inquests have a jury – this is when there are very specific circumstances. The inquest is a public hearing and anyone may attend – including the media. The information shared as part of the inquest can be quite technical e.g. toxicology reports. Sometimes the investigation will uncover information about the person who has died that the family and friends were unaware of.

https://uksobs.org/we-can-help/suicide-bereavement/practical-concerns/?doingwpp_cron=1644497098.1423490047454833984375

Here's Dr David Bell talking (with his years of expertise) about the catastrophic outcomes for children where therapists prioritise treating gender "issues" and ignore their numerous co morbidities. These children end up as adults with their self harm, eating disorders, anxiety and depression, suicidal ideation etc ignored and completely untreated.

YY. The "shameful and dangerous" people are the ones who seek to disregard those serious comorbid conditions in favour of affirming gender identity and pushing their agenda.

That analogy is crap.

You are talking about a known population. They are our children.

And there is enough of them being treated that there is knowledge about them.

They are not a magical population that has migrated to our country. There is also estimated to be around 500,000 trans people in the UK. That is larger than some indigenous populations living in western society.

I didn’t see any mention in that study on comorbidities. Nor any further depth of other aspects of what was happening in that persons life.

It is a very superficial study to be proposed to be used to advise health policy as they mention in the implications section.

Do you agree with those Men's Rights Activists in this analysis?

Yes. Although I'm not sure why they need to be men's rights activists. They could be anyone. But I suppose you think using the words men's right activists would be an immediate reason to dismiss their concerns.

Shit cloud cuckoo land analogy btw. But it's what I've come to expect of people that need to rely on made up shit in order to try and destroy women's rights and children's bodies.

Let's talk about who these people really are. Because they're not some rare ethnic minority. They are our children, who are at huge risk, because of the actions of those who force gender ideology on them. They are at risk of physical harm, brittle bone, heart attack, infertility. These are real children. Our children. This ain't no fairy tale made up bullshit, this is FACT. Maybe try understanding reality for a bit. I'm surprised the enormity of the mass damage being caused to children because of gender ideology doesnt overwhelm you and make you sick. I guess there's a reason right there to stay in cloud cuckoo land. So you don't need to face the harsh reality of what is happening to real children.

@suggestionsplease1 FWIW my business is actually conducting, analysing and interpreting research (Mumsnet is like that, we have all sorts on here) and Helleofabore is right, your analogy is crap. Poor surveys are not rich qualitative data, they are poor surveys. I have never seen a rich qualitative study of kids who identify as trans. If you know of any I would be happy to read them. There are plenty of hard-to-reach research groups out there who mistrust researchers for all sorts of reasons and it is perfectly possible to conduct excellent quantitative and qualitative research with these groups. This is standard social science fare.

What is more, with this group, unlike other hard-to-reach populations, there are many other sources of evidence many of which have been mentioned here (Coroners' Courts, medical records) and some of which have not (drugs bought online, overseas clinics). Not always easy to access, but this is why we have social scientists.

You may not want to listen to this, because it challenges what you believe, but the facts really are pretty clear. I would encourage you, instead of trying to persuade us that bad studies are good, to ask yourself why you are so utterly determined to ignore evidence just because you don't personally like it. In this argument it is starting to look as though you want young people identifying as trans to commit suicide. Why?

12:32 suggestionsplease1
This is the worst hypothetical scenario I've come across.

A) You can't do a survey after you've killed yourself.
B) If you're trans everyone flipping well knows about it including your pet fish.

You're arguing that

1. trans suicides are so extremely illusive and hard to measure that no one can possibly know the real rates AND 2)Trans people are the most extremely at risk of suicide out of all groups ever. So which is it?

I'll remind the American TRAs who frequent these boards that it is measurably provable that Native American males are of the highest risk of suicide compared to any other group in America. Numbers of Native Americans are roughly similar to those of transpeople in the U.S.
One of these groups can be proven to be a high suicide risk. One of these groups can't.

Slightly off topic but as an antidote to attempts to trash Transgender Trend's reputation (while using discredited surveys) here's TT's in depth response to the Conversion Therapy consultation.
It's thoughtful, compassionate and responsible, centring children's safety and welfare rather than the demands of adult activists seeking to weaponise children in their political battles:

www.transgendertrend.com/transgender-trend-response-government-consultation-conversion-therapy/

Igmum

You are right Igmum. I have an unclaimed research qualification (an industry one) from doing marketing research units and units of statistical analysis a uni.

This is a poorly designed research study even by market research standards, not even sponsored university research standards. And it is ridiculous to think some organisation would even think of using it to set policy and guidelines.

I really do think some posters on MN forget that many of us have our children caught up in this. And those of us who do, see the impacts daily. We also do the research. We do the analysis. We do the deep thinking.

Yet, they are here telling us we know nothing and treating us like we are ignorant. I hope it makes them feel better and morally superior.

[quote DoubleTweenQueen]@suggestionsplease1 There also doesn’t appear to be any sort of control group? - comparable cohort for age range. I question the use of % when looking at surveyed information?[/quote]
Listen, I suggest you do an introduction to statistics course or something, and then you will have an idea of why asking about a control group for this sort of research is such an inane question.

There are plenty of good research studies out there using qualitative approaches to understand trans peoples experiences, you just need to look. If anyone thinks this is not the case they clearly do not know what they are talking about.

eg.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31062669/

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29981953/

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.598455/full

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13811118.2021.2003273

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6798808/

Wehn you get through those I'll post a few dozen more if you like.

By the way. Here is Michael Biggs’ latest paper just released last month on UK numbers.

It too has lots of references to look at. It is not a peer reviewed study, but interesting none the less.

And also points out that there is likely to be other factors involved such as co-morbidies to increase the rate. But he has not quantified that in this paper.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-022-02287-7