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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Louis Theroux: Sex work is valid work

187 replies

Hestyo · 08/02/2022 06:32

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6b668836-8849-11ec-a837-0153f5f4adaf?shareToken=82f93f7a57c728c82da0d575b5201d55

"It’s not something you’re especially proud of using. But there are times in your life when you can’t get a decent meal, or you’re in a rush, or you’re just trying to get a need met."

Theroux added that his children were approaching an age where their internet searches may lead them to pornography. “I have said to them, ‘When you see porn, if this is something you’ve stumbled across, just so you know, that’s not the real world. That’s not how people have sex,’ ” he added.

He said sex work should be seen as an acceptable alternative to a traditional career. Forbidden America will investigate the OnlyFans phenomenon, which has given performers their own online following and financial independence.

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OhWhyNot · 09/02/2022 00:00

Oh yes people never break the law

Wasn’t that the decision in the 90’s against drug use ?

Being honest with children and moving away from the idea that men have to have sex would help

Enough4me · 09/02/2022 00:03

Definitely, men don't have to have sex. If they want it they can do what women do, form a partnership or DIY.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/02/2022 01:19

Human beings and the trade in their bodies is not the same thing as trade in intoxicating substances.

We're talking about a radical notion here: women are people, too. They are not objects to be sold, and no-one should have a job that involves developing vaginal and anal tears.

"Sex work" is work in that it is psychologically and physically demanding. It is also unacceptably dangerous, and violates all health and safety legislation we have. And that was before the pandemic of an entirely new virus spread by close contact.

Louis Theroux: Sex work is valid work
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/02/2022 01:29

extract

The world is disturbingly comfortable with the fact that women sometimes leave a sexual encounter in tears.

(continues)

The real problem isn't that we — as a culture — don't sufficiently consider men's biological reality. The problem is rather that theirs is literally the only biological reality we ever bother to consider.

So let's actually talk bodies. Let's take bodies and the facts of sex seriously for a change. And let's allow some women back into the equation, shall we? Because if you're going to wax poetic about male pleasure, you had better be ready to talk about its secret, unpleasant, ubiquitous cousin: female pain.

Research shows that 30 percent of women report pain during vaginal sex, 72 percent report pain during anal sex, and "large proportions" don't tell their partners when sex hurts.

That matters, because nowhere is our lack of practice at thinking about non-male biological realities more evident than when we talk about "bad sex." For all the calls for nuance in this discussion of what does and doesn't constitute harassment or assault, I've been dumbstruck by the flattening work of that phrase — specifically, the assumption that "bad sex" means the same thing to men who have sex with women as it does to women who have sex with men.

The studies on this are few. A casual survey of forums where people discuss "bad sex" suggests that men tend to use the term to describe a passive partner or a boring experience. (Here's a very unscientific Twitter pollI did that found just that.) But when most women talk about "bad sex," they tend to mean coercion, or emotional discomfort or, even more commonly, physical pain. Debby Herbenick, a professor at the Indiana University School of Public Health, and one of the forces behind the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior, confirmed this. "When it comes to 'good sex,'" she told me, "women often mean without pain, men often mean they had orgasms."

As for bad sex, University of Michigan Professor Sara McClelland, another one of the few scholars who has done rigorous work on this issue, discovered in the course of her research on how young men and women rate sexual satisfaction that "men and women imagined a very different low end of the sexual satisfaction scale."

While women imagined the low end to include the potential for extremely negative feelings and the potential for pain, men imagined the low end to represent the potential for less satisfying sexual outcomes, but they never imagined harmful or damaging outcomes for themselves. ["Intimate Justice: Sexual satisfaction in young adults"]

Once you've absorbed how horrifying this is, you might reasonably conclude that our "reckoning" over sexual assault and harassment has suffered because men and women have entirely different rating scales.An 8 on a man's Bad Sex scale is like a 1 on a woman's. This tendency for men and women to use the same term — bad sex — to describe experiences an objective observer would characterize as vastly different is the flip side of a known psychological phenomenon called "relative deprivation," by which disenfranchised groups, having been trained to expect little, tend paradoxically to report the same levels of satisfaction as their better-treated, more privileged peers.

This is one reason why Sullivan's attempt to naturalize the status quo is so damaging.

When a woman says "I'm uncomfortable" and leaves a sexual encounter in tears, then, maybe she's not being a fragile flower with no tolerance for discomfort. And maybe we could stand to think a little harder about the biological realities a lot of women deal with, because unfortunately, painful sex isn't the exceptional outlier we like to pretend it is. It's pretty damn common.

In considering Sullivan's proposal, we might also, provisionally, and just as a thought experiment, accept that biology — or "nature" — coexists with history and sometimes replicates the lopsided biases of its time.

(Continues)

This is certainly true of medicine. Back in the 17th century, the conventional wisdom was that women were the ones with the rampant, undisciplined sexual appetites. That things have changed doesn't mean they're necessarily better. These days, a man can walk out of his doctor's office with a prescription for Viagra based on little but a self-report, but it still takes a woman, on average, 9.28 years of suffering to be diagnosed with endometriosis, a condition caused by endometrial tissue growing outside the uterus. By that time, many find that not just sex but everyday existence has become a life-deforming challenge. That's a blunt biological reality if ever there was one.

Or, since sex is the subject here, what about how our society's scientific community has treated female dyspareunia — the severe physical pain some women experience during sex — vs. erectile dysfunction (which, while lamentable, is not painful)? PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43.

Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right.

Continues

www.theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure

ixqik · 09/02/2022 10:11

I wonder which one of his sons would he be happy to go into sex 'work'. Who know? May all of them. Obviously when it isn't a possible option for you, you can say any old shite about it.

ThrowawayBerna · 09/02/2022 13:02

@OhWhyNot

Well that is one way to look at it

Most don’t give it such deep thought we work to pay our way in life

It's not deep at all. It's supposed to be a 'zinger'. As if shelf-stacking is as much of a drain to the human psyche as the condition of your orifices being rated on punters' review sites.

As if women have never been, and are not prostituted in socialist or communist societies.

BellatricksStrange · 09/02/2022 14:36

@Hestyo

Yeah, I don't think 68% of shelf-stackers have PTSD.

It's interesting (read horrible) to look at the reviews men leave of prostituted women. They get very resentful when the woman doesn't put on a good enough act for them to forget that they're essentially forcing sex on a woman who doesn't want it and is actually deeply traumatised by it.

Nor do they have money. SW is a much higher paid 'job', but at a much higher mental/emotional cost. But that doesn't mean it is any less of a real choice.

Unless we're born into riches, we all need to work. Some of us are lucky to be born with the work acumen/ethic/parenting that helps us get well-paid jobs. Others will need to slog - at least in the beginning - at less well-paid jobs. But we all work out of necessity.

Almost any consensual SW knows she could find work that won't take such a heavy emotional toll, but the flip side is that such work means long hours and little money. That's why they choose to do fewer hours and more money, but riskier work.

I don't see how this makes it any less of a valid choice than any other work.

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 09/02/2022 14:41

I personally agree. I'd go into sex work if I had to. I have no problem whatsoever with admitting that. It's called survival. Also let's not forget did Jesus fall in love with a prostitute

Cruiser123 · 09/02/2022 14:58

Sex work is only ever valid work for women that aren't part of your family. It never ever applies to your own daughters, mothers, aunts, sisters.....

girafferafferaffe · 09/02/2022 14:59

Oh Louis :(

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 09/02/2022 15:23

@Cruiser123

Sex work is only ever valid work for women that aren't part of your family. It never ever applies to your own daughters, mothers, aunts, sisters.....
This. To those people who keep trilling on about it being a choice ... you do realise that many women are trafficked, groomed and coerced into this don't you? And often have serious addiction issues? How would you feel if your daughter fell for the Pretty Woman hype and chose it as her vocation? Risking assault, rape and possibly murder every day?

That this happens to one girl or woman is too high a cost. And to badge it up as "if they didn't mind working longer hours for less money" is highly offensive to the majority.

This thread is very fucking depressing.

A580Hojas · 09/02/2022 19:11

Individual women might choose to do sex work for their own screwed up reasons. But too many women have been coerced, groomed, or even brought up to do it (due to early normalising of sexual abuse). This impacts ALL women in the way men view women (as sexual playthings) and so no wonder the vast majority of women object - even if they have no connection with the sex industry.

Ann Summers is the "acceptable" face of the sex industry and I hate that Mumsnet accept so much money from this company.

OhWhyNot · 09/02/2022 19:30

Yes I do realise that as I have worked with sex workers as mentioned above

The stories are often tragic and awful many leave hating men and worse hating themselves

Many could have been far better protected but it’s not something as a society we really want to deal with we don’t want to accept sex is sold so rather than accept that this happens it’s not really dealt with it’s what sad desperate women do and desperate horrible creepy sad men pay for (many are the lovely guy you could have gone out with, the quiet guy at work, your best friends lovely brother) because we prefer to accept that narrative. It’s horrible it’s a dark side of society but it’s there and no matter what has been put in place it’s an industry that thrives

We could learn from how other countries have got it wrong, we could set up safer brothels, we could make sure all women have regular sex screening and harsher sentences for those that abuse women in the industry

And we could be teaching our sons in particular that sex isn’t a right to have but a desire

We could do all those thing but it will still be there (and no I do not use the term it’s the oldest profession …)

MargaritaPie · 09/02/2022 23:24

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Human beings and the trade in their bodies is not the same thing as trade in intoxicating substances.

We're talking about a radical notion here: women are people, too. They are not objects to be sold, and no-one should have a job that involves developing vaginal and anal tears.

"Sex work" is work in that it is psychologically and physically demanding. It is also unacceptably dangerous, and violates all health and safety legislation we have. And that was before the pandemic of an entirely new virus spread by close contact.

The map missed Nordic-model France out. In 2019, ten sex workers were murdered in a 6 month period. There have been other murders in France of sex workers besides these too.

www.pion-norge.no/aktuelt/more-than-10-sex-workers-have-been-killed-in-6-months

www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/long-read-how-nordic-model-france-changed-everything-sex-workers/

newsinfo.inquirer.net/1547253/france-jails-two-for-22-years-for-murdering-trans-sex-worker

MargaritaPie · 09/02/2022 23:29

Re the murder of Petite-Jasmine in Sweden (which is worth noting has a much smaller population than the other mentioned countries), it's interesting to note the Swedish Social Services took her children off her and gave custody to her violent ex.

Even though she wasn't committing a crime, Swedish Social Work sees sex workers as victims of self-harm which can have abovementioned consequence for them (lose custody of children).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Marree_Kullander_Smith

www.thelocal.se/20130717/49120/

"Social services removed her two children and placed them with her ex-boyfriend, arguing that "she lacked insight and didn't realize sex work was a form of self-harm".[1] She was not allowed to see her children.[2]"

That's one of the "small print" parts of the Nordic Model which tends to be kept quiet. Sex workers in Nordic-Model countries still aren't allowed to legally work together either.

MrGHardy · 10/02/2022 13:27

Yea, stopped watching him ages ago.

AKASammyScrounge · 11/02/2022 00:04

Martin Amis's articles on the realities of prostitution, 'A Rough Trade', can be read on the net. Grim stuff but an antidote to Theroux's limp liberalism. Google will get you there.
WARNING Articles are full of graphic material.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/02/2022 10:48

@AKASammyScrounge
Thank you for mentioning that, I looked it up and wouldn’t have known about it otherwise.

What an difference in intelligence and sheer cutting wit between Martin Amis’s and Louis Theroux’s portrayals of pornography. LT’s seems mushy and complaisant by comparison.

Just to warn people, it is unsettling to read.

MargaritaPie · 11/02/2022 11:14

www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-10/victoria-sex-work-act-repealed-decriminalisation/100818818

In related news, Victoria has just become the third jurisdiction [in Australia] to decriminalise sex work.

Aspiringmatriarch · 11/02/2022 12:12

I've read through this thread and I'm still not 100% sure about my views but just wanted to add my thoughts, tentatively. I definitely don't feel sex work (prostitution) should be treated like other forms of work, so in that sense I disagree with LT.

And I get why people say you're not consenting to sex freely if you're being paid for it, but surely there's a difference between a financial incentive and being forced into doing something? Not in terms of sex but in any context really? Not that it should be treated like any other activity (stacking shelves etc) but as a general argument, money = no consent seems quite weak to me?

Where it is obviously not a real choice is in cases of poverty where people are doing it to survive and see it as their only viable option. Being driven by desperation, or addiction, is different from just making the decision to sell sex in the absence of that kind of pressure. But in that situation, I don't see how further stigmatising prostitution and driving it underground would help those individuals - and surely they deserve to be helped rather than forced into making riskier choices? That includes being helped to leave sex work (if they wish to), given counselling and other kinds of support. I think this is where we need to focus efforts, reducing the need for women to turn to sex work, taking action against trafficking and pimping. But people who do sex work generally say the best thing for their safety and welfare is decriminalisation. The Nordic model makes them less safe. How can that be acceptable? The argument is then that it increases trafficking. But then we need to put all our energies into ending trafficking.

I'm not trying to gloss over the reality of the sex industry, I think it's probably 90% awful for the people involved, particularly because I don't see it as a choice many women would make from a place of mental health, safety and financial security. But that being said, I don't feel it's my place to make that assumption on someone else's behalf and therefore prohibit them from doing so or make it less safe for them. I'd just much rather see a genuine focus on lessening the reasons people (women) might come to see it as the best of their crappy options and on putting more resources into fighting against trafficking and coercive situations.

I'm also not 100% clear on the difference between legalisation and decriminalisation, so if anyone could explain that to me I would appreciate it.

Darhon · 11/02/2022 12:33

Remember the Ipswich sex workers who were murdered?

Actually, the town decided it could never be safe and worked to eradicate prostitution. They were pretty successful too until about a year or so ago

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-15258959

jennywhitehorses · 11/02/2022 14:26

@Hestyo

I'd need to revisit Kat Banyard's Pimp State to write a proper post on this but I believe regulating doesn't work. You end up with very exploitative super brothels like in Germany. Trafficking increases to supply demand. Think of a warehouse but with prostituted women instead of people rushing to get items on and off trolleys quickly enough.

It works in New Zealand. There has been no increase in the amount of prostitution there or trafficking. Kat Banyard does not tell the truth. She says that 127 prostitutes were murdered in the Netherlands since legalisation there. That is not true. This false statistic comes from 'Mr Wells' who she quotes in her book. Mr Wells is the Evangelical Christian bigot Jim Wells.

jennywhitehorses · 11/02/2022 14:29

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

This is telling lies. Most of the 127 women murdered were murdered BEFORE legalisation, not AFTER.

namitynamechange · 11/02/2022 14:43

@Awwlookatmybabyspider

I personally agree. I'd go into sex work if I had to. I have no problem whatsoever with admitting that. It's called survival. Also let's not forget did Jesus fall in love with a prostitute
I would too - I'd do anything to feed my children. However, I don't think that's incompatible with my thinking the men that use prostitutes are scummy.
MargaritaPie · 11/02/2022 16:36

"I'm also not 100% clear on the difference between legalisation and decriminalisation, so if anyone could explain that to me I would appreciate it"

My understanding (jennywhitehorses might be able to offer a better explanation) is that legalisation (eg Germany, Netherlands) means there are set rules and regulations to be followed, whereas decriminalisation (eg NZ and parts of Australia) means as long as laws are followed then sex workers are left to it to make their own rules.

Decriminalisation (not legalisation) is often the model advocated for by many human rights, health, anti-trafficking and sex worker orgs. There is a list of supporters of decrim at the end of this letter:

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

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