Louis Theroux: Sex work is valid work

[Hestyo]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6b668836-8849-11ec-a837-0153f5f4adaf?shareToken=82f93f7a57c728c82da0d575b5201d55

"It’s not something you’re especially proud of using. But there are times in your life when you can’t get a decent meal, or you’re in a rush, or you’re just trying to get a need met."

Theroux added that his children were approaching an age where their internet searches may lead them to pornography. “I have said to them, ‘When you see porn, if this is something you’ve stumbled across, just so you know, that’s not the real world. That’s not how people have sex,’ ” he added.

He said sex work should be seen as an acceptable alternative to a traditional career. Forbidden America will investigate the OnlyFans phenomenon, which has given performers their own online following and financial independence.

Goghom
“and who have never even met a person in this industry“

‘Industry’ seems like a euphemism.

@namitynamechange

Attack the cause, not the symptom.

The cause is the men who pay for sex, and the pimps who profit from it. I absolutely agree we should be targeting the cause.

But that is impossible to do without harming sex workers themselves who under any increased criminalisation will either be impoverished or forced into more dangerous forms of sex work - as well as be at risk of prosecution if they organise together to try and make themselves safe.

@powershowerforanhour

Do you remember Dirty Pretty Things, about immigrants?

"we are the people you do not see. We are the ones who drive your cabs. We clean your rooms. And suck your cocks."

Then give migrants adequate benefits, housing and education as well.

I agree with him.

Add him to the (incredibly long) list of disappointing men.

Here's an antidote: Julie Bindel on Triggernometry debunking this kind of bullshit

@MiladyBerserko

Prick.

Privileged Prick. In the words of Julie Binde, l I'm sure he'd been fine with his daughter sucking 8 or 9 unwashed cocks a night for a living.

But that is impossible to do without harming sex workers themselves who under any increased criminalisation will either be impoverished or forced into more dangerous forms of sex work - as well as be at risk of prosecution if they organise together to try and make themselves safe.

So you're saying that what Julie Bindel says here is wrong?

The promises from the government – that decriminalisation would result in less violence, regular inspections of brothels and no increase of the sex trade – have not materialised. The opposite has happened. Trafficking of women into New Zealand into legal and illegal brothels is a serious problem, and for every licensed brothel there are, on average, four times the number that operate illegally. Violent attacks on women in the brothels are as common as ever. “The men feel even more entitled when the law tells them it is OK to buy us,” says Sabrinna Valisce, who was prostituted in New Zealand brothels both before and after decriminalisation. Under legalisation, women are still murdered by pimps and punters.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/30/new-zealand-sex-work-prostitution-migrants-julie-bindel

And this from another article I linked to earlier:

There is “absolutely” a correlation between legalised prostitution and trafficking, says Andrea Matolcsi, the programme officer for sexual violence and trafficking at Equality Now. “For a trafficker it’s much easier to go to a country where it’s legal to have brothels and it’s legal to manage people in prostitution. It’s just a more attractive environment.”

She points out that Denmark, which decriminalised prostitution in 1999 – the same year Sweden made the purchase of sex illegal - has four times the number of trafficking victims than its neighbour despite having around half the population.

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

The people who have actually done some research disagree with you, barley.

The people who have actually done some research disagree with you, barley.

And sex workers themselves disagree with you:

Norway – Criminalised clients in 2009. Amnesty International’s 2016 research[xii] found that sex workers are still criminalised, including for working together for safety. Forced evictions, investigations, surveillance, prosecutions and increased stigma are prevalent with migrant workers particularly targeted: “police are using sex workers’ reports of violence and crimes against them as evidence to facilitate their eviction and/or deportation”; “sex workers were routinely evicted from their homes under so-called ‘pimping laws”.

France – Criminalised clients in 2016. Medecins du Monde’s 2018 report[xiii] found that since the law was introduced: 63% of sex workers have experienced deterioration of their living conditions, more isolation and greater stress; 42% are more exposed to violence (sexual violence, theft, and armed robbery); 38% have found it increasingly hard to demand use of condoms.

Ireland – Criminalised clients (Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill) in 2017. Attacks on sex workers have increased dramatically. Reported incidences of violent crime against sex workers, from threats to assaults with weapons, have risen by almost 50% — from 900 in 2016 to more than 1,300 since.[xiv] Sex workers are now less likely to report dangerous clients to Gardaí.[xv]

prostitutescollective.net/briefing-no-nordic-model/

From the Spectator article:
Having dropped out of her degree course, she claims to have made around £30,000 every month

Which sounds great. But then what happens as the market saturates with her images? She'll get older too. The demand for her content will dry up and she'll have to find other ways of earning a living. Trouble is that without any qualifications or workplace experience, she will struggle to get a proper job, particularly one which can fund the sort of lifestyle she has become accustomed to. Care work and food factories don't pay well. In order to keep revenues up she may have to do ever more extreme stuff, sinking steadily into an awful downward spiral.

@DdraigGoch

From the Spectator article: Having dropped out of her degree course, she claims to have made around £30,000 every month

Which sounds great. But then what happens as the market saturates with her images? She'll get older too. The demand for her content will dry up and she'll have to find other ways of earning a living. Trouble is that without any qualifications or workplace experience, she will struggle to get a proper job, particularly one which can fund the sort of lifestyle she has become accustomed to. Care work and food factories don't pay well. In order to keep revenues up she may have to do ever more extreme stuff, sinking steadily into an awful downward spiral.

And when she does have a chance of getting a job outside that, she'll be relying on employers and colleagues being unaware of her previous occupation.

The most unusual think about this post on reddit is that it's from the perspective of the man reporting the woman's onlyfans account. I normally see accounts like this from the viewpoint of exited women, reporting ex-clients who have attempted to blackmail them or get them sacked.

That we should accept sex work exists
@DisappearingGirl but who here has denied that "sex work exists"? Women on here may prefer to call it by a different term but no one is claiming it doesn't exist. If they were, there wouldn't be a point to their posts.

Criminalising the victims forces them underground. The answer is to criminalise the customer.

@DdraigGoch

From the Spectator article: Having dropped out of her degree course, she claims to have made around £30,000 every month

Which sounds great. But then what happens as the market saturates with her images? She'll get older too. The demand for her content will dry up and she'll have to find other ways of earning a living. Trouble is that without any qualifications or workplace experience, she will struggle to get a proper job, particularly one which can fund the sort of lifestyle she has become accustomed to. Care work and food factories don't pay well. In order to keep revenues up she may have to do ever more extreme stuff, sinking steadily into an awful downward spiral.

If she has any sense she will have bought a house, have some savings and be able to support herself through an education and into a new career. Please don't assume sex workers are only capable of factory work or do not have the foresight to make plans for their future.

@OhWhyNot

Its work that is exchanged for money.

Sex at times is traded by adults who are consenting

Children can’t consent

Adults can't always freely consent. They may feel forced into doing something by impoverishment or the threat of violence.

@Alonelonelylonersbadidea of course you would but that’s not the point. The point is no one should be faced with that choice. I said it earlier but when people are hungry we put food in their mouths not dicks.

DdraigGoch that’s why I posted sex at times is traded by adults who are consenting

Children can never ever consent

Please don't assume sex workers are only capable of factory work
I didn't, she was clearly bright enough to get onto a degree course. Trouble is that it doesn't matter what she is capable of. Would-be employers want to see documented evidence either in the form of experience or qualifications and she will have neither, having dropped out of her degree and not sought employment. A massive unexplained gap in your career history on a CV will push your application straight onto the "reject" pile. Which then means that you are stuck with the occupations most people consider too unpleasant so employers can't be picky.

or do not have the foresight to make plans for their future.
I'm not sure that many people at the age of 20 have the foresight to plan properly for their future. Look what happens to many footballers - they come into money at a relatively young age but in many cases blow it on fast cars etc., leaving them with nothing when they hit their thirties and have to retire. Some do OK but many don't. I suspect that clubs often help out by providing financial advisors to new players. I doubt the woman in question is getting that.

@OhWhyNot

DdraigGoch that’s why I posted sex at times is traded by adults who are consenting

Children can never ever consent

I'm well aware that children can never consent (though Rochdale police might need reminding).

What I am saying is that not all consent between adults is valid. In order to be valid in my view it must be consent born of free will. Consent given as a result of intimidation or desperation is not true consent.

In the same way male murderers of women and men should not be able to get away lightly, the male buyers of women and men should be highly penalised. The whole culture of acceptance of male violence and purchasing of bodies needs to change.

I am so disappointed in LT!

[quote Dobedodo]@Alonelonelylonersbadidea of course you would but that’s not the point. The point is no one should be faced with that choice. I said it earlier but when people are hungry we put food in their mouths not dicks.[/quote]
But we don't do we? We strip people of benefits for the slightest of reasons, let the DWP bully people into demeaning poverty paid work and pay benefits that aren't enough to survive on.

Until those probems are addressed, along with inadequate housing, lack of educational choices, poorly funded substance misuse services and draconian drug laws that push people with problems into the arms of the worst kinds of predators then any attempts to further criminalise sex work (or those who use sex workers) will result in pushing people further into poverty and more dangerous forms of sex work.

And it's not just the lowest paid and most vulnerable sex workers who will be affected. One of my closest friends is a pro-domme and very concerned about the Nordic model because presuming that kind of sex work is included it will means jumpy paranoid clients and an end to all the things she does to ensure her safety, like photo ID checks when she takes bookings.

Yes I know

But the work can’t be dismissed as not work. If the workers have been forced that is a form of slavery.

Coerced to is abuse

@OhWhyNot

Yes I know

But the work can’t be dismissed as not work. If the workers have been forced that is a form of slavery.

Coerced to is abuse

Unless you are born independently wealthy all work is coerced under capitalism.

Well that is one way to look at it

Most don’t give it such deep thought we work to pay our way in life

I have never earned above minimum wage. None of those jobs I have done to pay my rent were anything like being trafficked or being groomed into prostitution by an abusive boyfriend.

Why you would minimise this, I don't know.

Is that to myself

I have not minimised anything

I am well aware of the suffering that happens but it’s can’t be constantly dismissed as none work. It’s not going to disappear

What other countries have tried hasn’t necessarily worked so we need to work with this idea as much as we dislike it that sex work is part of society and how to we best support women in the industry that does not mean support women to go into the industry as it’s a good career move

If the buyers were sent to prison a week for every offence when caught buying a person, the culture would eventually change. Higher punishment for trafficking and pimping too. It would be seen as a disgusting thing for men to do.

It is being minimised 'it's just work', 'oldest job', 'women need the money', but stop the buyers stop the trade.