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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Ditum reviews Grace Lavery’s book

158 replies

SpiderVersed · 07/02/2022 10:37

She’s got a point, the pun in the title is very good. But otherwise Lavery is saying the quiet part out loud.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d95d9e92-85e7-11ec-b939-57ea9f594ba1?shareToken=8d58838e7b97ce21a4181d7bff0f91df

OP posts:
Gosports · 09/02/2022 20:05

Oh it turns out that us silly people have taken it all too seriously! It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. Doh! And Lavery wrote it all on their phone. So that’s nice.

www.them.us/story/grace-lavery-please-miss-q-and-a

BettyFilous · 09/02/2022 20:09

And Lavery wrote it all on their phone.

If only it had stayed there…

Gosports · 09/02/2022 20:15

Quite. Or that they had accidentally deleted it.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 09/02/2022 21:40

Lavery was apparently paid a huge advance

From The Lies They Tell review.

Wish the publishing industry would stop wasting the limited money they have for advances on talentless nobodies, whose main schtick ( apart from metaphorically shoving their penis down the reader’s throat) lies in being unremittingly vile because their only chance at getting any kind of conversation about their work is by shock or causing outrage, rather than by demonstrating any writing skill, or having something interesting to say.

DomesticatedZombie · 09/02/2022 22:25

@TheCurrywurstPrion

Lavery was apparently paid a huge advance

From The Lies They Tell review.

Wish the publishing industry would stop wasting the limited money they have for advances on talentless nobodies, whose main schtick ( apart from metaphorically shoving their penis down the reader’s throat) lies in being unremittingly vile because their only chance at getting any kind of conversation about their work is by shock or causing outrage, rather than by demonstrating any writing skill, or having something interesting to say.

Honest to god, this is why publishing is on its arse. Constantly underestimating, patronising and lowest-common-denominatoring readers DOES NOT WORK.

Yes, outrage merchants can cause a shitstorm in a Twittercup. But how many people are actually going to be moved to buy & read a whole book's worth? It's clearly going to be self-indulgent & insight-free. You can read all of this type of navel gazing on various blogs, why on earth would anyone pay for it? It works (briefly) to foment outrage on Twitter, but when there's nobody there to bounce off, it falls flat. And lies there twitching for far too long.

Respect your readers, offer them genuine ideas, don't tiptoe about on wokeshells and mistake pedestrian shock-schlock for a book that is actually earth-shattering. Will be interesting to see if this earns out.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 10/02/2022 00:21

Shon Faye got a whopping advance too. For reasons which remain unclear.

Their writing challenge appears to be "having something interesting to say" when their genre is "me, me, me, MEEE MEEEE MEEEEEEE"

allmywhat · 10/02/2022 00:43

The whole book feels to some extent like procrastination, like multi-tab browsing.

Grace Laveryself on the book, from that Q&A link.

It's not like I was going to buy it anyway but I genuinely can't think of a worse line to sell it. Like I need Lavery's procrastination and browser tabs to add to my own. It sounds like a curse, like when you buy someone's wart off them. Who could possibly want this?

unwashedanddazed · 10/02/2022 01:14

Allmywhat It sounds like a curse, like when you buy someone's wart off them

That sentence is just fucking brilliant. Lavery should be taking lessons from you!

Datun · 10/02/2022 09:06

It sounds like a curse, like when you buy someone's wart off them. Who could possibly want this?

Genius.

And as a review, awesome.

ANewCreation · 10/02/2022 14:12

I think Lavery aims to be all kinds of offensive with the abortion-erection vileness as some kind of 'enfant terrible' shtick. They're yet another high on their own supply individual, together with the usual narcissist 'accusations are admissions' on twitter in the last few days: Kathleen Stock is, apparently, the naked Emperor, Helen Joyce is not as bright as Lavery as she's 'only' got a doctorate whereas Lavery is a Professor and Lavery doesn't want to show her up. Yeah, right.

Plus what's with all the 'boy/girl' stuff when Lavery must be pushing 40? Enfant terrible stuff is precociously charming in the very young, excusable in the mid twenties because there is still growing up to do but endlessly going 'look at me! look at me!' is just tiresome in people like Lavery, with middle age looming.

Curiously, GL seems somewhat cagey or sensitive about their age - odd when there is so much narcissistic self-absorption and oversharing elsewhere. A first page Google search for their age took me to the farms which was the first result to give an answer (an unreferenced 38 - anyone here an Oxford contemporary of a 'Joseph/Jos Lavery' who can confirm?) where this queasy extract from Lavery's blog is revealing:

I have met, loved, and been loved by the families of many of my partners. The first family who loved me well was that of my first spouse. When we split up, which we did for the reasons I’ve mentioned, the family turned on me, and that was the hardest part of the whole experience. Since I was an orphaned, or at-least-half-orphaned, child, the love of other families was lavished upon me freely, joyously, and temporarily. Of course that family didn’t wish to be kind to me once I had left them. That would have been a category error.

The second spouse, and family, loved me in a very specific way: as people who want to be better than their religious orthodoxy will let them, love a cad whose picaresque charm attracts them, while allowing them to fantasize about saving a soul. That ambivalent desire and repulsion has followed me in a number of domains of my life (I have come to think of it as a trans girl thing), and it tends to be more erotically charged than one would expect. Not the first spouse-mother, but the second and the third spouse-mothers, had little crushes on me.

Perhaps mothers have crushes on their kids’ partners; perhaps that is a general thing. Anyway those frissons felt healing and lovely, rather than predatory or unsafe. I knew one would never move beyond the lightest, gentlest flirt once every year or so - it seems ridiculous to even imagine that it could. It was just a spark, a little warmth in the relation that felt secret and shy, a little gentle eroticization that let me know that my new pseudo-mother loved me, that they were at least as attracted to as concerned about the aspects of my personality about which they expressed the most voluble concern. Their bad faith relation to me precluded, in general, honesty with themselves or the world - but this I always knew, and didn’t mind. There is something cruel in me, there. A dicktease for moms.

Lavery, here's the thing, you can't read women for toffee. A heads up. At most, the mums of your multiple spouses were simply humouring you for the sake of their daughters, who had married a 'cad' as you frame it. Too right they were not the ones being 'predatory or unsafe'. I have other words but they would get this deleted.

These mothers had been through the 'look at me' narcissistic toddler stage with their own kids, 'yes dear, of course you are superman', nice smile, move on - and they employed the same strategy with needy you. It's on you, because you misread it as erotic interest. Barf. Though I imagine with extra creep and ick factor for those mums if they felt you were reading 'frissons' into their engagement.

The 'voluble concerns', the 'bad faith', the fact that they were happy to be shot of you at the end of the relationship with their daughter? That proves the category error was (and still very much is) all yours...

Datun · 10/02/2022 14:37

@ANewCreation

I think Lavery aims to be all kinds of offensive with the abortion-erection vileness as some kind of 'enfant terrible' shtick. They're yet another high on their own supply individual, together with the usual narcissist 'accusations are admissions' on twitter in the last few days: Kathleen Stock is, apparently, the naked Emperor, Helen Joyce is not as bright as Lavery as she's 'only' got a doctorate whereas Lavery is a Professor and Lavery doesn't want to show her up. Yeah, right.

Plus what's with all the 'boy/girl' stuff when Lavery must be pushing 40? Enfant terrible stuff is precociously charming in the very young, excusable in the mid twenties because there is still growing up to do but endlessly going 'look at me! look at me!' is just tiresome in people like Lavery, with middle age looming.

Curiously, GL seems somewhat cagey or sensitive about their age - odd when there is so much narcissistic self-absorption and oversharing elsewhere. A first page Google search for their age took me to the farms which was the first result to give an answer (an unreferenced 38 - anyone here an Oxford contemporary of a 'Joseph/Jos Lavery' who can confirm?) where this queasy extract from Lavery's blog is revealing:

I have met, loved, and been loved by the families of many of my partners. The first family who loved me well was that of my first spouse. When we split up, which we did for the reasons I’ve mentioned, the family turned on me, and that was the hardest part of the whole experience. Since I was an orphaned, or at-least-half-orphaned, child, the love of other families was lavished upon me freely, joyously, and temporarily. Of course that family didn’t wish to be kind to me once I had left them. That would have been a category error.

The second spouse, and family, loved me in a very specific way: as people who want to be better than their religious orthodoxy will let them, love a cad whose picaresque charm attracts them, while allowing them to fantasize about saving a soul. That ambivalent desire and repulsion has followed me in a number of domains of my life (I have come to think of it as a trans girl thing), and it tends to be more erotically charged than one would expect. Not the first spouse-mother, but the second and the third spouse-mothers, had little crushes on me.

Perhaps mothers have crushes on their kids’ partners; perhaps that is a general thing. Anyway those frissons felt healing and lovely, rather than predatory or unsafe. I knew one would never move beyond the lightest, gentlest flirt once every year or so - it seems ridiculous to even imagine that it could. It was just a spark, a little warmth in the relation that felt secret and shy, a little gentle eroticization that let me know that my new pseudo-mother loved me, that they were at least as attracted to as concerned about the aspects of my personality about which they expressed the most voluble concern. Their bad faith relation to me precluded, in general, honesty with themselves or the world - but this I always knew, and didn’t mind. There is something cruel in me, there. A dicktease for moms.

Lavery, here's the thing, you can't read women for toffee. A heads up. At most, the mums of your multiple spouses were simply humouring you for the sake of their daughters, who had married a 'cad' as you frame it. Too right they were not the ones being 'predatory or unsafe'. I have other words but they would get this deleted.

These mothers had been through the 'look at me' narcissistic toddler stage with their own kids, 'yes dear, of course you are superman', nice smile, move on - and they employed the same strategy with needy you. It's on you, because you misread it as erotic interest. Barf. Though I imagine with extra creep and ick factor for those mums if they felt you were reading 'frissons' into their engagement.

The 'voluble concerns', the 'bad faith', the fact that they were happy to be shot of you at the end of the relationship with their daughter? That proves the category error was (and still very much is) all yours...

I can't imagine how fucking exhausting it would be to go through life so endlessly addled by your own sex drive that it permeates and colours every waking moment. Every human interaction graded on its arousal factor.

I'm knackered just reading it.

Helleofabore · 10/02/2022 14:50

I wonder if Lavery’s spouses realized how Lavery felt about their mothers?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 10/02/2022 14:57

Is that rambling nonsense a case study for a psychology course?

SwissBall · 10/02/2022 14:57

Helen Joyce is not as bright as Lavery

Grin Grin Grin

NothingTraLaLa · 10/02/2022 15:34

Is it just me, or does Lavery’s twitter pic look a bit like a Pizza Hut logo from a distance?

(I’m currently low-carbing, which may explain this comment)

DomesticatedZombie · 10/02/2022 15:39

the second and the third spouse-mothers, had little crushes on me.

Perhaps mothers have crushes on their kids’ partners; perhaps that is a general thing. Anyway those frissons felt healing and lovely, rather than predatory or unsafe. I knew one would never move beyond the lightest, gentlest flirt once every year or so - it seems ridiculous to even imagine that it could. It was just a spark, a little warmth in the relation that felt secret and shy, a little gentle eroticization that let me know that my new pseudo-mother loved me, that they were at least as attracted to as concerned about the aspects of my personality about which they expressed the most voluble concern. Their bad faith relation to me precluded, in general, honesty with themselves or the world

Oh, Jesus.

Every woman in the room just rolled her eyes.

the second and the third spouse-mothers, had little crushes on me.

No, they bloody didn't.

boatyardblues · 10/02/2022 17:30

Oh, Jesus.

Every woman in the room just rolled her eyes.

And shuddered. Creepy as fuck. I bet every woman in GL’s partners’ extended families breathed a sigh of relief when they could cut ties. It reminds me of how Stars in their Eyes used to be mocked as Stars in their Minds. This reads the same - star of your very own fantasy. No one else is in on it or cares.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 10/02/2022 21:14

Curiously, GL seems somewhat cagey or sensitive about their age

Perhaps not that curious. This from the “The Lies They Tell” review suggests its author has concluded that Lavery has likely knocked at least ten years off.
”An observation about Lavery’s cultural references: they all seem to be relevant to someone who grew up ten years earlier than he himself is supposed to have done, this occurred to me many times throughout, but none more so when it is claimed that he thought a lot about the Jamie Bulger case when he was about ‘seven or eight’ (LOC 2829). Bulger was murdered in 1993 and 7 or 8 seems way too young to have had any real interest or be exposed to the news of Bulger’s murder. Or know who Tom, Barbara, Margo and Jerry were”

The Goode Life finished in 1978, though it may have been repeated. I can remember it reasonably well and I’m mid fifties. Likely Lavery is the same.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 10/02/2022 22:06

Me too.

I find foundation is tricky now that I've got marionettes. It cakes in the crevices and looks like I've dribbled cottage cheese. The stubble from my tache is hard to manage tool, the foundation sticks to the little jaggy hairs like cladding round a pipe.

Are there any tips for ladies of a certain age trying to manage these issues in Grace's book?

BettyFilous · 10/02/2022 22:09

I’m dying to know what autocorrects to marionette. 😂

ANewCreation · 10/02/2022 22:11

OK, this is from Wadham College, Oxford's site.
www.wadham.ox.ac.uk/news/2016/april/english-reunion

Jos Lavery (2001), Assistant Professor, University in English, University of California, Berkeley.

The 2001 refers to matriculation year ie the beginning of first year undergraduate, putting Lavery at around 38, 39, maybe 40 at a push now.

The years have just not been kind...

Pthagonal · 10/02/2022 22:51

Is it reasonably common to contract Joseph to Jos? It's the first time I've heard it, normally it would be Joe, wouldn't it?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/02/2022 00:04

Hang on a minute. Lavery is an ex of Laurie Penny, who is also a Wadham alumna (in English), and I'd assumed they'd met each other as fellow undergraduates. But Penny can't possibly have started the course any earlier than 2005.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 11/02/2022 00:06

I don't see the problem. If someone can change sex by sheer force of will, or screaming and screaming until they feel sick, then why can they not also change age or academic achievement or species?

SwissBall · 11/02/2022 00:31

If GL was in a relationship with LP then I do actually feel sorry for her. GL sounds horrific.

The 🥝 also mention the age but I presume they would have found something to prove this if it were true.