Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mridul Wadwha and the thought police

465 replies

IamSarah · 03/02/2022 17:58

Great article in Spiked Online about Mridul Wadwha's latest shenanigans:

www.spiked-online.com/2022/02/01/the-thought-police-are-here/

To briefly summarise:

  • Mridul was born male
  • Mridul is legally male with no GRC
  • Mridul is the CEO of Edinburgh Rape crisis
  • Mridul claims women who want female only rape crisis services are bigoted and should 'reframe their trauma'
  • The CEO of a domestic violence charity Nicola Murray stopped referring women to Mridul's rape crisis service due to Mridul's misogyny
  • Mridul reported Nicola Murray to the police for committing a hate crime
  • The police actually visited Nicola Murray to question her thinking
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/02/2022 15:38

[quote Waitwhat23]@purgatoryofpotholes was it Laverne Cox who was publically supportive of a transwoman in jail without looking into what they has actually been jailed for and only later found out that that prisoner was guilty of the horrific rape and murder of a young girl?[/quote]
Yep

VestofAbsurdity · 06/02/2022 15:44

[quote Waitwhat23]@purgatoryofpotholes was it Laverne Cox who was publically supportive of a transwoman in jail without looking into what they has actually been jailed for and only later found out that that prisoner was guilty of the horrific rape and murder of a young girl?[/quote]
As Potholes confirmed it was indeed, but according to Rebecca Solnit and barley who used her quote as a 'gotcha', transwomen are NO threat to women or girls at all, ever, it's all just lurid what ifs, let the bodies pile up they are only the bodies of that invisible, subhuman species known as women and girls.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/02/2022 15:46

Let's definitely talk about Beth Elliot. I am delighted you brought that up. I've never had an opportunity to bring up this research into feminist history before. By the way, Rebecca Solnit would have been 11 while this was going on, so probably doesn't know about it all.

extract

Like today, the inclusion of males claiming to be female based on sexist stereotypes split the Women’s Movement from within. This large split really began in 1972 when two lesbian feminists decided to prioritise the feelings and desires of males over females. The co-founders of Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), a lesbian civil rights group, Del Martin and Phyllis Lyons, argued for a compromise position and the inclusion of transsexuals as allies to women. This was ultimately rejected by the members, however, an exception was made for the transsexual Beth Elliott in light of his long-standing involvement. Beth was deemed a special ally to women. Jeanne Cordova reported in The Lesbian Tide in December 1972 how ‘on Tuesday, Nov. 17th, the membership of San Francisco’s Chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis voted against admitting transsexual persons into their organization. Ending a several month long “very heavy issue”.

This description indicates the length and strength of feeling surrounding the issue of whether males with penises could be lesbians and should be permitted into lesbian activism. ‘Del Martin, co-founder of D.O.B. and member of the San Francisco Chapter said, “D.O.B. has always been set up as a woman’s organization. A person before having the operation (to become a woman) is not legally a woman. Phyllis (her lover and co-founder of D.O.B.) and I understand both sides of the issue. . .it’s regrettable that it had to come up this way.” (The Lesbian Tide, Volume 2, issue 5)

They argued that there were two sides to whether males could be lesbians. Why must women and feminist always consider what men want? Why can’t feminists and the Women’s Movement prioritise female needs? Cordova recounted how ‘in recent months the subject and matter of transsexuality has become once again a controversial issue among gay groups and organizations. In the San Francisco chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, the issue has threatened to split that organization in half’.

There was broad feminist and lesbian opposition within the grass roots movement.

Cordova related how women insisted ‘that transsexuals are “only synthetic women”, who “should start trying to relate to each other and get out of our space”, a number of S. F. D.O.B. members recently went on a campaign to oust two transsexual members of that organization’.

In the campaign, they stated “We don’t like them voicing their opinions as lesbians. They are not lesbians. Even after surgery it would be hard to accept these people as lesbian women. There is no excuse for this ‘passing’. These people should accept themselves for what they are. Their oppression is different than the lesbians’ oppression.” (The Lesbian Tide, Volume 2, issue 5, December, 1972, p.21)

One group of women argued that males cannot change sex or be lesbians, the other argued sexist ideas of male and female brains, so feminist.Cordova recorded that some DOB members ‘in an article written from the standpoint that male-to-female transsexuals are women, and should therefore be allowed in DOB, have stated: “A transsexual is a woman who is born in a man’s body or a man who is born in a woman’s body, and who goes through reconstructive surgery to bring his or her body into harmony with her mind’. (The Lesbian Tide, Volume 2, issue 5, December, 1972, p.21)

Cordova pinpointed that ‘the entire issue regarding transsexuals in DOB really boils down to whether or not one accepts science’s definition of a male-to-female transsexual as a woman; whether or not one accepts that any such woman who feels love for only women, who relates to only women, who identifies herself as a lesbian, is a lesbian”. (The Lesbian Tide, Volume 2, issue 5, December, 1972, p.21)

The lesbian feminists who opposed males in their spaces, definition and sexuality were then chastised with the concept of ‘true trans’. The ‘just be nice’ women argued that “the true transsexual wants not just to be a woman (or man) inside, but also to have the physical body of their true sex. Despite all the disadvantages involved with being a woman and a lesbian, the transsexual woman, with the alignment of her body with her psyche, gains her self-identity and her self-esteem. And that is everything”.

It looks like ‘And that is everything’ was an early form of the modern slogan ‘no debate’. It is interesting to note that these women posited male self-esteem and male mental health as the everything, the point, of lesbians and feminists.

It was the infiltration and inclusion of the male Beth Elliott in a lesbian feminist group which arguably birthed liberal ‘feminism’. It was reported in The Gay Liberator that ‘Commenting on the vote, Del Martin, co-founder of DOB and member of the San Francisco group, said, “DOB has always been set up as a woman’s organization. A person before having the (transsexual) operation is not legally a woman.” But a sizeable minority disagreed. “En masse and in something akin to cold fury,” the entire staff of Sisters magazine, the monthly publication of SF DOB, resigned their positions and their membership in DOB’.

Women, supposedly lesbian feminists, sided with a man over women and women’s interests. ‘In an open letter from the former staff of Sisters, they described the lone transsexual member (who was also part of the Sisters staff) as “a devoted worker who has poured hundreds of hours of time and energy into DOB. Unfortunately for her, she was born into a man’s body and is now voted out of DOB and forbidden to write for Sisters“.

Because he is a man. The staff of Sisters highlight the concept of women as vending machines which men put kindness tokens into and get a reward. This is the idea of ‘honorary woman’ because he had spent time writing articles. That this man got women’s rights as a reward for speaking for women and taking a woman’s place. These staff members of Sisters had been ideologically captured, they had swallowed the lie that a white heterosexual male is oppressed as a woman, if not more oppressed. They blindly stated “We will have no part in the oppression of our sisters [men in dresses],” and “We voted to keep DOB open to all women, we lost, and we will now seek an alternative to DOB”. (The Gay Liberator, issue 24, February 1, 1973, p. 3.)

This fracture occurred, the ideological capture, the putting men before women, because of the inclusion of one ‘transsexual ally’, Beth Elliot.

Still, feminist pushback to males in female spaces and the Women’s Movement and Lesbian Movement and the ‘just-be-nice’ women who enabled this was on the increase. They lost the vote and male transsexuals were not to be included in the lesbian activist group, apart from one special transsexual ally – Beth Elliot. Only a few months later in 1972 Beth Elliott was expelled from the lesbian feminist group DOB over allegations that he had sexually harassed and assaulted the lesbian Bev Jo Von Dohre.

Similar to the current sexual assault allegations against the trans rights activists Eli Erlik, allegations againstLilly Madigan, allegations of indecent exposure in the workplace againstJess Bradley, the rape allegations against Kami Sid, the sexual assault allegations against Andi Dier who heckled Rose McGowan, and the paedophilia allegations against trans activistJessica Yaniv, to name just a few, the allegations against Elliott were dismissed as transphobia.[13]

One of the clearest signs that people don’t really believe that these transsexuals/transgenderists have changed sex is that their behaviour will be excused and a woman disbelieved and slandered if she speaks up. Indeed, some women on the editorial board of supposedly feminist Sisters magazine with Elliott walked out over the decision to remove him because of sexual assault allegations. Some women will always support males over females. The vote of ‘No’ to include males was not taken as a complete sentence and ‘It was decided to have a National Lesbian Conference in L.A. in the spring of ’73’ because ‘D.O.B. in San Francisco [was]split over the trans-sexual issue’, part organised by the transsexual accused of sexual assault – Beth Elliot. (The Lesbian Tide, Volume 3, issue 1, August, 1973, p.4)

uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-ii-beth-elliot-1972/

Goatsaregreat · 06/02/2022 15:48

Grin Looks like that hour spent googling was a bit of a waste of time as so much of it is easy to debunk Grin Grin

DomesticatedZombie · 06/02/2022 15:50

Laverne Cox speaking in support of Synthia China Blast. 'convicted for the rape, murder and abuse of the corpse of thirteen-year-old Ebony Nicole Williams'.

Helleofabore · 06/02/2022 15:58

So, no UK feminists then barely? Just your usual reliance on the US to back up your discussions that centre on the UK.

And I thought that feminist academics fight long and hard about the interpretation of Dworkin's work. Yet, here you are confidently asserting that she would be fully supportive of the totalitarianism of the ideology that drives the full inclusion of males into the female sex.

And she cannot rebut this because she is no longer alive and in fact, died well before the totalitarianism kicked in.

Of course, there will be second wave feminists who will be fully onboard with repeating the mantras. They may even believe them. I would like to see the UK feminists who fought for the liberation of women who are now horrified at what is being pursued in their name please. UK examples discussing UK legal and social issues.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/02/2022 15:59

And now, let's talk about Andrea Dworkin.

Frankly, I am indebted to you for supplying the context of her earlier book, which she referred to it this article, written in 2003. Like us these years later, Andrea Dworkin was willing to consider the impact on women.

Andrea Dworkin

Amy Bloom has written a humane, liberal book about what I called, inWoman Hating(1974), "multisexuality" - the notion, as she puts it, "that gender has a continuum, a fluid range of possibilities". Through anecdote and observation, she explores three phenomena that testify to the reality of sexual and gender diversity: female-to-male transsexuals; heterosexual men who cross-dress; and the intersexed, sometimes called hermaphrodites, whose genitalia and reproductive organs are configured at birth in a variety of atypical ways. She asks: What is normal? And why are those of us who presume to be normal so frightened of those we presume are not?

She expected to find self-hating women worked on by woman-hating surgeons; instead she found men: “I met bullshit artists, salesmen, computer programmers, compulsive, misogynistic seducers, pretty boys inviting seduction, cowboys, New Age prophets, good ol’ boys, shy truck drivers saving their money for a June wedding, and gentle knights. I met men.” We don’t know what maleness is, she asserts; but she knows a man when she meets one. In one interview she asks, “Have you had any previous surgeries?” The man replies, “Why, yes, the double mastectomy and the hysterectomy.” Her incredulous reaction is, “But you’re a man.”

Bloom looked at photograph albums of female-to-male transsexuals at different stages of hormone treatment. The changes suggest gender fluidity. But the surgery involves a great deal of pain and money. Large numbers of the female-to-male transsexuals decide not to add the male organ. James Green says: “I chose this because, well, I don’t really feel the need for a big one and I like having the range of feeling I always did. This form of sexual pleasure is fine for me and my girlfriend.”

The willingness to have female genitalia and to abstain from sex, the lack of emphasis on the penis as such, raise many questions about the maleness of these perceived men. Maybe Bloom’s subjective reaction to these female-to-male transsexuals - these are men - might not withstand more aggressive scrutiny: has any of them ever committed a sexual assault? Are they communicating with her as women might, or might being oneself appear to be male, lacking as it does the deviousness and decoration of the female role in the west?

The heterosexual men who dress as women like the artifice. They have a fetishistic relationship to dressing in women’s clothes and using make-up. There is a lustful, narcissistic desire to be viewed as female. The fetish is a “mixture of attraction and envy that often leads these men to have sex with women while thinking of themselves as male lesbians”.

These are the "cross-dressing cops" promised in the subtitle ofNormal; according to Bloom, "Heterosexual cross-dressers are disproportionately represented among the retired military; they are often first-born sons, and often quite masculine-looking, which is why the rest of us struggle so with their appearance." The men claim a hidden female side that cross-dressing expresses but, as Bloom puts it, "the woman within is entirely the Maybelline version". The men do pay some lip-service to feminism and tree-hugging.

It is their wives who suffer. Bloom points out that these are conventional women who stay in marriages with an unforgiving double standard. If the wives cross-dressed - didn’t shave their body hair, or spent money on expensive artificial facial hair - the marriages wouldn’t survive. The double standard has another side. As one wife remarked: “For 20 years he couldn’t help with the dishes because he was watching football. Now he can’t help because he’s doing his nails. Is that different?”

Bloom had trouble with these guys. She did not want to be cruel or illiberal, but had to conclude “that a passion for a person, or a capacity to love people, is different from a sexual impulse that is directed toward an object or an act and is greater than the desire for any person”. Welcome to the wider world of heterosexual men who don’t cross-dress.

The last group is the intersexed: males born with small penises, females born with large clitorises; as well as genetic deviations. There is a variety of genital and reproductive anomalies associated with these conditions. These folk are the innocents, dealt a bad hand. Surgeons stepped in to remedy nature. They decided which were boys and which girls, and then took a knife to make it as true as it could be.

It was not until the intersexed became adults and began to organise that the surgical emergency was challenged. The ethic that evolved was “No unnecessary surgery, no cosmetic surgery without consent . . . No lying, no shame.” The intersexed children had been the ones most lied to - about themselves. The fight is not over; there are still many doctors who perform sex reassignment surgery on infants. It is in the surgeon as pater-familias that one encounters appalling social injustice.

Andrea Dworkin’s most recent book isHeartbreak: the political memoir of a feminist militant(Basic Books)

barleybadminton · 06/02/2022 16:00

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

No-one's ever denied there was a split in the 70's lesbian feminist movement about trans women with those opposed to inclusion acting in shockingly violent ways including death threats, assaults and turning up with weapons to intimidate a trans woman. Perhaps the famous quote by Bev Jo best illustrates the ugly mood of the time: “They expect we’ll be shocked to see statistics about them being killed, and don’t realize, some of us wish they would ALL be dead.”

And those same feminists clustered behind Janice Raymond - infamous for her calls to eliminate transsexuality from society - and ultimately gave birth to the gender critical movement. However they were not the majority, far from it, even within lesbian separatist feminism, which in itself was a small part of a much larger struggle.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/02/2022 16:03

Perhaps the famous quote by Bev Jo best illustrates the ugly mood of the time: “They expect we’ll be shocked to see statistics about them being killed, and don’t realize, some of us wish they would ALL be dead.”

That would be Bev Jo, the woman who reported being sexually assaulted by Beth Elliot? As detailed in the post you are responding to?

It does pay to read other people's posts. I used bolding for you.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/02/2022 16:08

Feminist is mean about people who commit sexual assault.

More news at 10.

Person allies with alleged predator and says feminists are the real awful people for being mean about rapists and sexual predators.

More news at 11.

Sophoclesthefox · 06/02/2022 16:11

@PurgatoryOfPotholes, thank you! Fab posts.

Goatsaregreat · 06/02/2022 16:12

Keep going barley - there's some great knowledgeable responses to your googling. Imagine - women knowing our feminist history Grin

Sophoclesthefox · 06/02/2022 16:13

And with that, I think we’ve come full circle back to women’s feelings around sexual assault and the male persons who perpetrate them being entirely disposable and/or invisible.

CompleteGinasaur · 06/02/2022 16:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

CompleteGinasaur · 06/02/2022 16:19

And again - poor Beth the sexual predator, Nasty Bev Jo the victim.. So much DARVO, so little time.

CompleteGinasaur · 06/02/2022 16:21

Well, I don't know what that got deleted for, all I did was like PurgatoryofPotholes' post?

Helleofabore · 06/02/2022 16:23

@Sophoclesthefox

And with that, I think we’ve come full circle back to women’s feelings around sexual assault and the male persons who perpetrate them being entirely disposable and/or invisible.
Interestingly we have indeed.

What kind of mind can deny that right to request a female examiner to a shaking, traumatised woman on the worst day of her life when that person is also the CEO of a rape crisis centre?

Helleofabore · 06/02/2022 16:25

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Perhaps the famous quote by Bev Jo best illustrates the ugly mood of the time: “They expect we’ll be shocked to see statistics about them being killed, and don’t realize, some of us wish they would ALL be dead.”

That would be Bev Jo, the woman who reported being sexually assaulted by Beth Elliot? As detailed in the post you are responding to?

It does pay to read other people's posts. I used bolding for you.

You did use bolding. It was hard to miss it...
DomesticatedZombie · 06/02/2022 16:29

2nd wave feminists?

Yay Germaine!

DomesticatedZombie · 06/02/2022 16:30

Solnit is not 2nd wave by any stretch.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/02/2022 16:31

I think we have inadvertently answered my question.

The answer may be "a mind that sees a woman's horror and scorn of her rapist as a crime equivalent with the rape".

Women's words are worse than men's actions.

To quote Dr Em

One of the clearest signs that people don’t really believe that these transsexuals/transgenderists have changed sex is that their behaviour will be excused and a woman disbelieved and slandered if she speaks up.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/02/2022 16:33

@DomesticatedZombie

Solnit is not 2nd wave by any stretch.
Indeed. She was 11 years old when the staff of Sisters were siding with Beth Elliot.
DomesticatedZombie · 06/02/2022 16:38

Some 2nd wavers on this letter in support of Greer and others who've been 'no platformed':

www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2015/feb/14/letters-censorship

barleybadminton · 06/02/2022 16:39

Frankly, I am indebted to you for supplying the context of her earlier book, which she referred to it this article, written in 2003. Like us these years later, Andrea Dworkin was willing to consider the impact on women.

She is reviewing a book about cross dressers not trans women, a book which favourably argues that trans men are men incidentally.

Helleofabore · 06/02/2022 16:45

Solnit is not 2nd wave by any stretch.

I did not think so either.

It was like a poster found an article by Emma Allen and just copied the references and threw in Dworkin.

I mean this sentence is not going to catch the world alight.

The majority of feminists are accepting of transpeople. Yeah. They are! Some feminists have a clearly defined boundary of how far they believe gender should be prioritised over sex and that sex matters in some instances... like males presenting themselves as a female for a role designated for females.

And the author couldn't even get Suzanne Moore's name correct.

And frankly, the author, Emma Allen just throws in a whole heap of tropishness and doesn't provide any credible evidence to support the denouncement of :

It seems that radical feminists have their priorities out of whack. They seem to see the biggest threat coming from transpeople and allies rather than attacks on abortion, economic exploitation or domestic violence. Online debates focus on not allowing transwomen in “women’s” bathrooms as though there needs to be some sort of bathroom police on duty. These ridiculous debates detract from much more productive conversations on how to organize against sexism.

Their hatred does not have any place in our struggle. Feminism is supposed to be an ideology of transcending gender oppression and eliminating the strict binary definition of gender, not reinforcing it. Feminists should be against hatred and bigotry in all forms and respect everyone’s right to biological autonomy.

Umm.... has this author read anything really by some of those 'anti-trans' feminists she reels off?

Is this the level of feminist thinking you think proves your point barely?

Could Bindel be accused of not fighting for rights around abortion, economic exploitation (including prostitution but good article barley) and domestic violence?

Home goal really. Brings the discussion back to :

What kind of mind can deny that right to request a female examiner to a shaking, traumatised woman on the worst day of her life when that person is also the CEO of a rape crisis centre?