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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Mumsnet Webchat about women/mums in politics with Stella Creasy and Caroline Nokes - 1st February

609 replies

Bosky · 31/01/2022 11:56

Anyone got any questions for Stella and Caroline? Smile

Go to:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/4468388-Webchat-about-women-mums-in-politics-with-Stella-Creasy-and-Caroline-Nokes-1st-February

OP posts:
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9
Beefcurtains79 · 01/02/2022 14:05

I feel like crying after reading that. There’s no hope is there?

JustineMumsnet · 01/02/2022 14:05

@Helmetbymidnight

The web chat was on 'women in politics'. They refuse to say what a woman is - its very difficult to have a conversation on women in politics when they can't define their terms.

I would have preferred a proper deletion message. At least then I'd know that I had posted.

I don't think they did refuse did they. you just didn't agree with them...
UltraVividLament · 01/02/2022 14:05

I thought that they both said variations on - women includes women, transwomen and non-binary? At which point there's very little point asking them for further clarification because it's clear they are already signed up to gender identity ideology.

ArabellaScott · 01/02/2022 14:05

What did Caroline do to the proffesrs

She didn't use their titles, for a start. Called them by their 1st names. (The people arguing for self ID were all afforded correct titles, IIRC).

And the contempt openly dripped from her and her colleague. They gave a hostile interrogation, an accusatory grilling, whereas the 'experts' for the other evidence session were treated with utmost respect and deference.

It's really quite eye opening watching the two evidence sessions and comparing.

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 01/02/2022 14:06

Thanks for the webchat, @JustineMumsnet. You deserve a Gin and It, for arranging it. With a maraschino cherry, a cocktail onion and an olive, and a little decorative paper umbrella.

That's what I'm having anyway. And yes it does count as three of my five a day.

JustineMumsnet · 01/02/2022 14:06

@ArabellaScott

Gin - well, nobody can tell what's really in that mug, can they?
Brew Brew
SeaRabbit · 01/02/2022 14:06

Here's a link:

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/dfc9f53e-2ac4-4c30-8712-e3df47938fd7

DoubleTweenQueen · 01/02/2022 14:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post.

Helmetbymidnight · 01/02/2022 14:07

I don't think they did refuse did they. you just didn't agree with them...

I guess so. Shock

thanks Justine.

FOJN · 01/02/2022 14:08

How can we trust politicians to draft usable legislation if words have no meaning?

How can you actually discuss women in politics if we can't agree on what a woman is?

Does anyone think my car insurance would pay out for a broken TV if I said it identified as a Volvo?

We enshrined a lie in law in 2004 and now we are dealing with the consequences. Legislators knew they were passing law based on a lie as evidenced by the primogeniture clause.

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 01/02/2022 14:08

@JustineMumsnet is right - the two MPs did say what they think 'women' are.

It's potentially every human on earth.

SeaRabbit · 01/02/2022 14:09

Mea culpa, one of the 'males' to who Caroline and chums gave respect is actually female, but transitioned, and as is the way of these things, makes quite a convincing man: Stephen Whittle.

ArabellaScott · 01/02/2022 14:10

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

Thanks for the webchat, *@JustineMumsnet*. You deserve a Gin and It, for arranging it. With a maraschino cherry, a cocktail onion and an olive, and a little decorative paper umbrella.

That's what I'm having anyway. And yes it does count as three of my five a day.

Cherry, onion and olive, all at once? Confused
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/02/2022 14:11

I also want to thank you, Justine.

You, and this place you built, are our only hope. You're women's Obi Wan Kenobe.

I think it is nuts that an astute businesswoman has that responsibility placed upon her - because our female politicians are not brave enough to try and balance what women need, what we want, and what the law says we are entitled to.

I am furious. Absolutely livid. My disappointment makes me shake with anger.

I NEED those two politicians. I NEED to have women in parliament and I really don't care which party they are in - just that there are women representing the interests of 51% of the population; the interests and needs that the 49% are often totally oblivious to.

I want to vote, I am politically engaged and if either of their parties made a commitment to protect my sex based rights I would vote for them.

As it is, I'm hoping that Rosie Duffield, Johann Lamont, Joanna Cherry, Joan McAlpine, Baroness Nicholson, and Jackie Doyle Price set up a political party for women.

Because without women standing up for women then we are fucked, by anyone who wants to fuck us.

I suspect that civil servants and political staff will be looking at this thread now - well, read this:

I am a floating voter. I am not alone, by refusing to uphold my sex based rights you have created a mess because there are an unknown number of women thinking "they have done WHAT?"

Our tights to privacy, safety and dignity matter a great deal to women - you just aren't bothering to ask us about it because it's Too Hard and worse, you aren't doing any sort of impact assessment on what effect losing our rights to privacy, safety and dignity has us as a group. That is your job. You are letting me down.

This sounds a little dramatic, but, I mean this sincerely - I will never forgive you for allowing women to be raped in jails. I will never forgive you for dismissing the marginalised women. I will never forgive that women who are escaping male violence and get to a refuge find it is shut because it has lost funding because they refused to accept male people. And I will never forgive that the person in charge of Rape Crisis Edinburgh has none of the skills, qualifications or aptitude for the role, but has one special quality that freshly raped women do not want to be around.

You can come on MN and give us mantras and slogans and refuse to engage in the ONE issue which comes up repeatedly - that's unfortunate but it's up to you.

The consequences of your dismissal of us on here, though, are that I will never forgive you and I will never vote for you while you contribute to women being fucked over.

No thank you.

FOJN · 01/02/2022 14:17

This sounds a little dramatic, but, I mean this sincerely - I will never forgive you for allowing women to be raped in jails. I will never forgive you for dismissing the marginalised women. I will never forgive that women who are escaping male violence and get to a refuge find it is shut because it has lost funding because they refused to accept male people. And I will never forgive that the person in charge of Rape Crisis Edinburgh has none of the skills, qualifications or aptitude for the role, but has one special quality that freshly raped women do not want to be around.

Neither will I.

And how dare they make women responsible for raising the level of debate when they are supporting state sponsored abuse of women.

ArabellaScott · 01/02/2022 14:17

@Beefcurtains79

I feel like crying after reading that. There’s no hope is there?
Well, women aren't going to vanish. No matter what happens in the courts and the boardrooms, we'll still be here, with our inconveniently female bodies and all the issues that we've dealt with for millenia due to our sex. For all the bluster and arguments, there's no changing sex or the biological reality of our mammalian existence! Smile

We're just going to have some situations where life is harder (again). Women persist, though. We've done it before, we'll do it again. We organise more, we learn, we regroup, we get up again.

Take heart. x

rifling · 01/02/2022 14:23

Well that was a waste of time! As others have pointed out, there's no point in discussing how to increase the number of women in politics if "women" refers to potentially everyone.

littlbrowndog · 01/02/2022 14:25

Just watched that parliament thing

Was able to go to the bits to see how Caroline nokes introduced each of the 2 sections and now I remember

She didn’t give the women their titles.

How rude were they not worthy 🤷‍♀️

littlbrowndog · 01/02/2022 14:26

@rifling

Well that was a waste of time! As others have pointed out, there's no point in discussing how to increase the number of women in politics if "women" refers to potentially everyone.
Agree
bucketsoflove · 01/02/2022 14:28

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chilling19 · 01/02/2022 14:29

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littlbrowndog · 01/02/2022 14:29

You know I was just reading that the number of young women getting a smear test has gone down in Scotland in the past 5 years

Maybe it’s because of the language now used that’s not understood

Like people with a cervix

Sorry just thinking about what these 2 women politicians don’t recognise what is happening in real world and how it directly affects us

RoyalCorgi · 01/02/2022 14:29

I feel utterly depressed after that. They both refused to engage with the question - as if they didn't understand what was being asked. Or rather, refused to understand.

And it's all very well telling people off for asking the same question repeatedly. It's not as if this is just one side issue among many more important topics. It is THE issue. If you can't define what a woman is, how can you develop policies aimed at women? It's that simple. It's a bit like telling the suffragettes off for banging on about the vote all the time.

Still, at least we had the opportunity, I guess. At least Mumsnet is here - as a PP said, without Mumsnet, we wouldn't be able to have this debate and we wouldn't be able to find each other. Mumsnet, as Helen Joyce pointed out, is one of the reasons that gender-critical feminism has been able to organise so much more successfully in this country than in others.

Goatsaregreat · 01/02/2022 14:30

I also want to thank you, Justine. You, and this place you built, are our only hope. You're women's Obi Wan Kenobe.
I think it is nuts that an astute businesswoman has that responsibility placed upon her - because our female politicians are not brave enough to try and balance what women need, what we want, and what the law says we are entitled to.

Well said vivariumvivariumsvivaria

littlbrowndog · 01/02/2022 14:30

Because people with a cervix was all over radio and tv.

🤷‍♀️

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