School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

What I find worrying, in safeguarding terms, is the anti-trans lobby's obsession with the genitalia of children, to the point of advocating strip searches for young people who appear to be gender non-conforming.
As a PP said, safeguarding does have to take into account individual circumstances - it would be regarded as disgusting and probably count as illegal discrimination to restrict a gay adult's interaction with children of the same sex/gender on the grounds that all gay people are a higher risk to children.

@Wreath21

What I find worrying, in safeguarding terms, is the anti-trans lobby's obsession with the genitalia of children, to the point of advocating strip searches for young people who appear to be gender non-conforming. As a PP said, safeguarding does have to take into account individual circumstances - it would be regarded as disgusting and probably count as illegal discrimination to restrict a gay adult's interaction with children of the same sex/gender on the grounds that all gay people are a higher risk to children.

What I find worrying with the non anti trans s how they are so keen to allow girls to share showers and changing rooms and bed rooms with trans girls. It’s a child protection crisis.

‘The process of protecting children from abuse or neglect, preventing impairment of their health and development, and ensuring they are growing up in circumstances consistent with the provision of safe and effective care that enables children to have optimum life chances and enter adulthood successfully'

Starts with being a grown up and realising that even sometimes the best intentions lead to situations that children should not have to deal with.

It also starts with knowing that a 14 year old has little concept, or I hope so, of what can go wrong and the long term ramifications to their mental health and physical health if something does go wrong.

Now, imagine the damage by knowing that they were in a situation that harmed because a) they chose it and b) the parents and teachers were focused on being kind to one child while neglecting the care of others.

And yet, we have adults here who have more childish outlooks than 14 year olds because they should be the ones who know better.

it would be regarded as disgusting and probably count as illegal discrimination to restrict a gay adult's interaction with children of the same sex/gender on the grounds that all gay people are a higher risk to children

No one on this thread has said this.

to the point of advocating strip searches for young people who appear to be gender non-conforming

No one on this thread has suggested this.

No one on this thread has said this.

Indeed, you'll note we restrict all adults interactions of children of either sex, as this is far easier and less intrusive, and covers the same risk area.

@Wreath21

What I find worrying, in safeguarding terms, is the anti-trans lobby's obsession with the genitalia of children, to the point of advocating strip searches for young people who appear to be gender non-conforming. As a PP said, safeguarding does have to take into account individual circumstances - it would be regarded as disgusting and probably count as illegal discrimination to restrict a gay adult's interaction with children of the same sex/gender on the grounds that all gay people are a higher risk to children.

It doesn't matter what gendered presentation a child "appears", what matters is the sex that they are.

Just like it doesn't matter what age a child "appears", we still categorise them based on their objective, factual age.

We don't say "oh, this 12 year old girl is very mature for her age and looks like she's 18, so there's no issue with her having a relationship with a 20 year old man". We separate all 12 year olds, the tall ones, the babyish ones, the smart ones, the naive ones, the streetwise ones (etc) from all the other age categories, where age is an appropriate category (eg sports, exams, youth groups, clubs and societies, etc).

Same applies with sex.

I think there is an assumption that we would need to strip search everyone to determine sex

Or we could just use the sex noted on the birth certificate and have that as part of the identity checks when the child joins the school

Once children are older , their gender none conforming looks do not disguise sex . So tempted to write soz at the end of that line.

( except to grandma and her friends - I often wonder if people lose the ability to sex people once they pass reproductive years ? Or is it years of conditioning ?)

Its not an assumption, its propaganda.

I'll give you that one

misinformation spreading since very few people RTFT

What I find worrying, in safeguarding terms, is the anti-trans lobby's obsession with the genitalia of children, to the point of advocating strip searches for young people who appear to be gender non-conforming.

Where has anyone advocated for this?

What I find worrying is that safeguarding is being framed as ‘anti-trans’!

And it is a classic trans activist tactic to twist this to being a focus on ‘genitals’ in this way. But since you go there:

YES! It IS about genitals. Particular genitals coming together is part of what safeguarding is there to prevent. Particularly in children.

Isn’t it strange how trans activists want discussions about genitals to be considered an invasion of privacy even when discussing this safeguarding issue for children. (A bit of Queer Theory coming to the fore there?)

Strange how trans activists want to be able to deny the material reality of what those genitals mean in a safeguarding situation.

But crack on with your attempts to paint yourself on the ‘right side of history’ in the fight for righteousness.

Wouldn’t it be grand though if we could just say ‘that person is a male, and males are subject to x safeguarding measures’, without having to mention genitals to describe which girl is the one that should be in single sex space?

Or we could just use the sex noted on the birth certificate and have that as part of the identity checks when the child joins the school

Birth certificates need to be submitted as part of school and early years nursery applications here.

Since children are unable to have their sex changed to the fictitious sex as adults (ridiculously) can, the child's birth certificate will record the correct sex. So the school will know the child's sex, even if Johnny is now Jenny and wear a ponytail.

(And let's be honest, at 14 years old sex differentiation is going to be evident in many ways all over the body, it's hardly like we'd need to see a child's penis or vulva to know )

anothersmahedmug

It is a well known extreme trans activist tactic.

I say extreme because we know there are many trans people who support robust safeguarding measures and would agree that this male should not be in accommodation with the females.

And I note here, that not all trans activists are trans people at all.

@anothersmahedmug

I think there is an assumption that we would need to strip search everyone to determine sex

Or we could just use the sex noted on the birth certificate and have that as part of the identity checks when the child joins the school

Once children are older , their gender none conforming looks do not disguise sex . So tempted to write soz at the end of that line.

( except to grandma and her friends - I often wonder if people lose the ability to sex people once they pass reproductive years ? Or is it years of conditioning ?)

It's almost like some of the people on this thread have never actually had a child at school isn't it?

Very curious

it would be regarded as disgusting and probably count as illegal discrimination to restrict a gay adult's interaction with children of the same sex/gender on the grounds that all gay people are a higher risk to children.

Just out of interest, how would it not be "disgusting and probably count as illegal discrimination to restrict a 'cis' child's interaction with children of the opposite sex on the grounds that all 'cis' are a higher risk than 'trans' people of the same sex."?

Don't pretend like you're not advocating discrimination here. Both of us are.

I'm advocating discrimination based on sex. I can justify that.

How are you justifying discrimination between males on the basis of trans status/gender identity/however you want to look at it?

• the individuals involved and their personalities, the quality of the friendship, the feelings of the teenagers, the knowledge of the adults - these are all more valuable in determining a good approach than the sex of the students.

/////

Please enlighten us as to how the hell you even quantify these things?

I'll.aak again wreath

Why are you being so transphobic in assuming trans people are unable to adhere to safguarding practices so need them removed. Why are your expectations of their behaviour so low

@suggestionsplease1

OK, lets take the UK government definition of safeguarding:

‘The process of protecting children from abuse or neglect, preventing impairment of their health and development, and ensuring they are growing up in circumstances consistent with the provision of safe and effective care that enables children to have optimum life chances and enter adulthood successfully'

This is a process, nowhere in that description does it entail a binary decision on binary sex. That is simply reductive to operate in that way, and leaves both females and males at risk of harm from their own sex.

So if, let's say you make a blanket judgement and just put female bodies in with female bodies, and male bodies in with male bodies with no other influencing factors (and of course, as already noted several times on this thread, people are most likely to be abused by people they are close to, so you must also logically ensure that all female bodies must go into rooms with other female bodies they don't know / are not friends with - they will be safer after all that way, right?

Does that make sense? That's some of the logic being expressed on this thread. Is that what you want for your daughters on their school trips? That's what the logic dictates.

Or they could go on their trips and stay in rooms with friends they feel confident, comfortable and happy around, consolidating secure friendships and support networks that might last for decades to come. That seems fairly consistent with the safeguarding definition above, doesn't it?

There is no implication from the OP that this is a spurious, bad faith gender ID for the sake of the trip.

FFS . Are you being deliberately disingenuous? Of course safeguarding isn't just based on sex segregation. But when analysing risk of peer on peer assault it's pretty fucking obvious what steps should be taken to minimise risk.

There is no implication from the OP that this is a spurious, bad faith gender ID for the sake of the trip.

////

OP has stated school have built policy around it. As parent to a DD I'd be fucking livid. Do her preferences not matter or again, should she just STFU and #BeKind?

the individuals involved and their personalities, the quality of the friendship, the feelings of the teenagers

Quality of the friendships. That is a great one.

I watched the fall out of 14 year olds spending a night camping together. All very close friends that were not speaking by the next morning.

And have never regained their closeness since.

Some posters really seem to have a view of 14 year olds that is not based on reality. In fact, just reading some of these posts, they seem to be coming out of an aspirational parenting guide written by someone who walked past a 14 year old once.

@Sexnotgender

Just astounding putting the responsibility on the 14 year olds like that.

Exactly. It’s a total abdication of responsibility.

Believing that a FOURTEEN year old will feel able to stand up and say, actually no I don’t feel comfortable sharing when there are swathes of grown women too scared to say anything that could remotely be construed as “transphobic” for fear of losing jobs, friends etc. is risible.

More pertinently, even headteachers are apparently too cowardly to stand up for child safety.

Or perhaps by someone who is 14. With all the simplistic narrow minded thinking that often entails

@Whatwouldscullydo

I'll.aak again wreath

Why are you being so transphobic in assuming trans people are unable to adhere to safguarding practices so need them removed. Why are your expectations of their behaviour so low

You're the one who is insisting that trans people are inherently more dangerous and sexually predatory than cis people.

Some posters really seem to have a view of 14 year olds that is not based on reality. In fact, just reading some of these posts, they seem to be coming out of an aspirational parenting guide written by someone who walked past a 14 year old once.

And was never a 14-year-old themselves, apparently.

Erm the other boys aren't allowed to bunk up with the girls either. Fir exactly the same reason.