Michael Phelps believes in an even playing field

[DoYouSeaWhatISea]

Michael Phelps speaks to Christiane Amanpour CNN, and says that he believes in an even playing field, when asked about Lia Thomas, of Penn womens swim team.

Of course, P News interprets that as ironic because, erm, Michael has long arms.

I’d say if anyone understands competitive sport and fairness, it’s Phelps. I’ve liked him for a decade, and more so today.

Maybe someone clever than me could post an archive link to the PNews article, for those that don’t want to click. TIA.

nypost.com/2022/01/17/michael-phelps-ncaas-lia-thomas-controversy-very-complicated/

www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/01/18/lia-thomas-michael-phelps-university-pennsylvania/

Much as I hate the idea off men in women's sport, it's not a level playing field generally speaking, is it?

I'm 5'2". I'm never going to win the high jump or a sprint or anything else.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

Lia thomas is making the issue break through to thd mainstream. CNN asked Phelps what he thinks about it. That's amazing. To think Sharon Davis has been plugging away for 3 or 4 years. This is pushing the issue to the fore.

That’s excellent. I can’t imagine he’d have wanted to spend 8 hours a day training in the pool in order to compete with people who had a well documented 10% advantage.

(But I still don’t see how it’s ‘complicated’)

@Justkeeppedaling

Much as I hate the idea off men in women's sport, it's not a level playing field generally speaking, is it?

I'm 5'2". I'm never going to win the high jump or a sprint or anything else.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

That's not the point though is it? Female high jumpers may be tall, but their height is within the natural parameters of female. Michael Phelps is tall with large hands, but again within normal male parameters. TW do NOT have bodies that are within female parameters.

@Justkeeppedaling

Much as I hate the idea off men in women's sport, it's not a level playing field generally speaking, is it?

I'm 5'2". I'm never going to win the high jump or a sprint or anything else.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

So are you suggesting weight categories, plus arm length categories, height categories etc etc for every sport and every event?
The Olympics would last 2 months instead of 2 weeks

Or can we simply go back to finding the best man and the best woman in each sport and each event?

Not to mention the obvious fact that even if men and women have equal weights, or heights, or arm span lengths, the best man in each category would always beat the best women. Everyone knows that. It's not complicated at all.

@OperationDessertStorm

That’s excellent. I can’t imagine he’d have wanted to spend 8 hours a day training in the pool in order to compete with people who had a well documented 10% advantage.

(But I still don’t see how it’s ‘complicated’)

It's not complicated. People want to watch outstanding female athletes. It's the outstanding part they want to watch. Not mediocre male athletes.

@Justkeeppedaling

Much as I hate the idea off men in women's sport, it's not a level playing field generally speaking, is it?

I'm 5'2". I'm never going to win the high jump or a sprint or anything else.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

This has been debunked so many times. I recommend Ross Tucker on his Science of Sport podcast to give a full explanation, but the bottom line is sex is the single most significant determinant of athletic performance.

The Paralympics have Women's, Mens, and Open catagories. The classifications (Leg Length, Height) exist because otherwise the least disabled athlete would be most likely to win their class.

I don't think classifications are a compelling argument for erasing sex classes in sport; you still couldn't safely have mixed sex contact sports, and mediocre men would displace women.

So are you suggesting weight categories, plus arm length categories, height categories etc etc for every sport and every event?

The Olympics would last 2 months instead of 2 weeks

Not really, because it's obviously not possible. But I might be a v v fast runner, faster than any other 5'2" high woman, but there's no medal for that.
There is no competition where short women can race against short women, but there are completions for, say, the over 40s, people with one leg or whatever.

@Manderleyagain

Lia thomas is making the issue break through to thd mainstream. CNN asked Phelps what he thinks about it. That's amazing. To think Sharon Davis has been plugging away for 3 or 4 years. This is pushing the issue to the fore.

Yes, exactly. I was chatting with a few other friends at school pick up, one of whom has a daughter who is on city the swim team. She brought it up. It’s the first time I’ve discussed this with anyone, when someone else has raised the subject (it’s usually me, and not always well received). All of the group (all mums btw) agreed it is clearly unfair.

And the Phelps advantage that P News beings up is such a red herring. Nothing whatsoever to do with bio sex and fairness.

Also, the photo on the NY Post article is first time I’ve seen Lia at competition. For some reason I can’t attach it here.

@Justkeeppedaling

Much as I hate the idea off men in women's sport, it's not a level playing field generally speaking, is it?

I'm 5'2". I'm never going to win the high jump or a sprint or anything else.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

So find a sport that you feel that you personally can compete in equally as a small female person.

But if you want to specifically compare to swimming, then Hannah Miley as a 5’5” woman weighing 8st 7lbs won World and Commonwealth gold medals.

@Justkeeppedaling

Much as I hate the idea off men in women's sport, it's not a level playing field generally speaking, is it?

I'm 5'2". I'm never going to win the high jump or a sprint or anything else.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

Boxing and other martial sports are always a good example here. There are weight classes, the men’s go down shockingly low- there is a category for below 49kg 😮. Plenty of women fighters in the same ranges to compete against in your plan, but all the decent the men would be horrified at the idea and if it did happen the competitive strong elite athlete women would mostly be destroyed. Sex is the biggest difference of all.

People are sexually dimorphic: female and male.
I'm a short, bit squat, middle aged female. I'd rather run against women then men if my life depended on winning a race.

LP is a cheat.

@DoYouSeaWhatISea

Also, the photo on the NY Post article is first time I’ve seen Lia at competition. For some reason I can’t attach it here.

This picture?

"There is no competition where short women can race against short women, but there are completions for, say, the over 40s, people with one leg or whatever."

Yes, but in every competition - for people who are 5'2, over 40, with only one leg etc etc, the best man would always beat the best woman.

So even if we did have this very complicated system to give loads of people a chance, you would still need to have two of each event - one for women and one for men. Otherwise every single winner would be male.

So it's irrelevant. Sex segregation in sport is necessary if we want women to win anything, ever.

Phelps gave a cryptic answer, and confusingly compared being trans to doping.
It’s not a confusing reference to most of us pinknews, the comparison is pretty clear.

Weightlifting olympic records:

Men's 56 kg category - 307 kg
Women's 58 kg category - 246 kg

Men's 69 kg category - 357 kg
Women's 69 kg category - 275 kg

Across the weight ranges men lift 30%+ more than women.

It’s quite misleading in the pink news article to describe caster as a “cis female” forced to lower her testosterone.

I’m maybe wrong but I thought caster was believed to have xy chromosomes? Hence the limit?

@MaryGubbins

It’s quite misleading in the pink news article to describe caster as a “cis female” forced to lower her testosterone.

It's not just misleading, Pink News are liars, plain and simple.

@MaryGubbins

I’m maybe wrong but I thought caster was believed to have xy chromosomes? Hence the limit?

Yes that is correct. Many people don't seem to realise this.

@FrankBurnside I saved this from Twitter the other day, I’m not a biologist so my rudimentary understanding is that it’s not just chromosomes it’s this SRY gene expression that determines biological sex and it can happen in different locations to the usual on the chromosomes with intersex people. I don’t know which one Caster is but you can be XY and in the female category. The source seemed sound but the Twitter account is tagged on the table so you can check for yourself.

@Justkeeppedaling

*So are you suggesting weight categories, plus arm length categories, height categories etc etc for every sport and every event? The Olympics would last 2 months instead of 2 weeks*

Not really, because it's obviously not possible. But I might be a v v fast runner, faster than any other 5'2" high woman, but there's no medal for that.
There is no competition where short women can race against short women, but there are completions for, say, the over 40s, people with one leg or whatever.

I mean, sure, we could have, say, short person basketball, just like there are weight classes for boxing. Some sports have these, others don't, and it's largely down to historical development.

But even in these kinds of sub-groups there are differences, and yes, those are the things that make some people especially good at some sports.

But this is really quite different from male vs female athletes. Because in all but a few sports, if we had mixed sex groups, even with lots of sub-groups, what you would see is that it would be almost always men that won, at least past the very low levels. The Olympics would be almost exclusivly male athletes, even the extra-small basketball team.

Women's and men's physiology are just quite different in ways that don't apply within the sexes. Muscle density, the way the pelvis is formed, bone strength, and so on.

Yes that is correct. Many people don't seem to realise this.

Many people don’t seem to realise this because news reports, including on the BBC never include the fact Semenya is male with XY chromosomes. It’s deliberate omission, so it’s hard to get people to be aware.