Michael Phelps believes in an even playing field

[DoYouSeaWhatISea]

Michael Phelps speaks to Christiane Amanpour CNN, and says that he believes in an even playing field, when asked about Lia Thomas, of Penn womens swim team.

Of course, P News interprets that as ironic because, erm, Michael has long arms.

I’d say if anyone understands competitive sport and fairness, it’s Phelps. I’ve liked him for a decade, and more so today.

Maybe someone clever than me could post an archive link to the PNews article, for those that don’t want to click. TIA.

nypost.com/2022/01/17/michael-phelps-ncaas-lia-thomas-controversy-very-complicated/

www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/01/18/lia-thomas-michael-phelps-university-pennsylvania/

It has been proposed that Caster has the DSD 5ARD which affects males

For clarity, it’s not been proposed, it’s a clearly stated fact in the Cas ruling. Semenya has 5 alpha reductase deficiency.

He’s still not coming out and saying it’s fucking outrageous and should not be happening at all, EVER!

Still more chirping that it’s “very complicated” when it’s not complicated at all.

But it’s something. Doesn’t want to get himself branded a bigot, I suppose.

Micheal Phelps was in a relationship with a transgender woman at once stage, though I doubt that’ll be enough to avoid the “bigot” label

@NotBadConsidering

It has been proposed that Caster has the DSD 5ARD which affects males

For clarity, it’s not been proposed, it’s a clearly stated fact in the Cas ruling. Semenya has 5 alpha reductase deficiency.

It was stated but still media agencies tend to hedge around this. And I too, was hedging around trying to find the words.

I think the word "complicated" should be banned from these conversations . Every time I hear it I know the person saying it is really saying "we know the answer but we are afraid to say it"

I think "it's complicated" is a euphemism for "I'm sorry but ..." A bit like "no offence, but ..." only less coded as passive aggressive.

We know about the pressure on women to be kind, but I think for men too, especially young men, there is an increasing expectation that we should be able to find a solution (not even a compromise really) that leaves everyone happy. So when someone says "it's complicated," I think they often mean that they can't find a solution that will please everyone and that they know what they are going to say next is going to upset someone or be controversial.

I am no expert on what cis means but I thought it was taken to mean a match/uncomplicated relationship between sex and gender identity.

Caster’s life has famously been massively influenced by the complicated nature of her sex and gender.

So yes describe as female but the cis bit rankled me. As it always does.

I mean describe her as female if that’s what the guidelines say in reporting intersex athletes.

We have to spell out the bleeding obvious is because telling lies about changing sex has become the norm

I know. I was being facetious.
People hedging their bets by claiming it is complex is ridiculous.
It isn't complex at all.
Men have a biological advantage over women.

The Democrats in the US know that the sport issue is a major vote loser.
As this nonsense trickles down into junior and amateur sports the anger will only increase.
Do you think this country will tolerate a transwoman footballer getting into the Women's England team? Imagine the front pages of the tabloids.
The sport issue could be the thing that throws the brakes onto the spread of this ideology.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.
To be truly fair, you would have to take into account also funding, your geographical proximity to training facilities while growing up, how many people encouraged you, whether you perform worse on hot days etc etc In the end everyone would be in a category of one. Or we could divide everyone able-bodied into the two broad categories which show the most marked differences between them and everyone could compete and enjoy sports.

By the height category ussain bolt would be running against all the also-ran atheletes as received wisdom was sprinted should be short. So he’d never have gotten a race against the elites.

You could reduce a man’s testosterone level to zero and he would STILL have an unfair advantage over women.
Because you have done nothing to shrink his shoulder girdle, his lung capacity, his cardiac output, his oxygen transport, his percentage of fast twitch muscle fibres, his muscle bulk, or alter his pelvic girdle and the carrying angle of his femurs.
As a doctor, I can’t understand why this basic biology is ignored in the rush to destroy women’s sports. It reeks of male entitlement.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

None of these differences comes close to the differences by sex and would make for extremely boring viewing.

People gravitate towards things they are good at and they have a broad idea who they are up against when they choose to compete. Why should a woman on the 90th percentile for height (5ft 7) have to compete against the 10% of the women who are taller and some of the 75% of men that are taller, while a man on the 90th percentile only has to worry about 10% of men. That is where fairness between the sexes and natural advantage intersect.

@Justkeeppedaling

Much as I hate the idea off men in women's sport, it's not a level playing field generally speaking, is it?

I'm 5'2". I'm never going to win the high jump or a sprint or anything else.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

Height is an advantage in some sports but not all of them others it is an advantage to be smaller. Some sports like rugby have different positions that favour different body type or in boxing height can be an advantage in terms of reach but a disadvantage in terms of how much muscle you can develop and remain within a weight class. Rowing was dominated by tall people but has introduced the lightweight classes to open up the top levels of competition to shorter people. Using height rather than sex to segregate sports would massively disadvantage women. I was the same height and waist size as my then boyfriend when we were in our earlier 20's.

Caster is male. The DSD they have only affects males.

@Justkeeppedaling

Much as I hate the idea off men in women's sport, it's not a level playing field generally speaking, is it?

I'm 5'2". I'm never going to win the high jump or a sprint or anything else.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

That really isn't the point.

Be a rock climber, a gymnast, skiier, jocky, ice skater, wrestler, body builder, F1 driver, MMA, Clay pigeon shooting, archery, voleyball, most of the martial arts, weight lifting, surfung, skateboarding.

Phelps would be crap at those because of the body that maes him a great swimmer.

Level playing field doesn't mean everyone has the same access or chance of winning. It means that anyone can pick a sport that they are good at, suited for and, using only accepted training regimes, can excel at.

Pick a sport where your phenotype is an advantage.

Or just take part for fun.

It’s so disingenuous to throw Caster Semenya into the debate. People arguing for the inclusion of MTF trans people in women’s sports, who also support unconditional inclusion of athletes with 5ARD differences of sex development like Semenya are using diametrically opposite arguments to try to get to the same “inclusive” end point.

Semenya was assigned female at birth. Subsequent evidence came to light (the dsd) that proved this not to have been true. However, the initial categorisation on the birth certificate of Female must be respected and adhered to and cannot be over written.

Thomas was “assigned” male at birth. Subsequent information came to light (the gender identity) that proved this not to have been true. But the initial categorisation on the birth certificate of Male must not be respected and adhered to and must be over written.

Someone arguing in good faith can’t argue that one both ways, unless the argument is that athletes must be allowed final say, in which case goodbye women’s sport, and good luck to all the Paralympic athletes who should expect to be seeing able
bodied people in their events shortly.

@nolongersurprised

Micheal Phelps was in a relationship with a transgender woman at once stage, though I doubt that’ll be enough to avoid the “bigot” label

The word “allegedly” was used a lot at the time. Phelps didn’t confirm or deny.

Good for him - we need more high profile men to be saying stuff like this and calling it out.

It would be great if people would just listen to the women but we know that's not going to happen. Men need to back us up with this big style.

I agree with what you’re saying Fox, but it’s not completely disingenuous to bring in Semenya because the IOC framework document which is hot news currently combines the two, both gender identity and sex variations:

stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?segment=11ld09yfs_amp_id*YW1wLTJwQUE2TWlocXhRS1R3VFNsOFc5UUE.

The US swim coaches association is asking for clarification to ensure women aren’t disadvantaged by transgender athletes.

swimmingcoach.org/

The word “allegedly” was used a lot at the time. Phelps didn’t confirm or deny

It was during his “messy” phase - rehab and DUI and the like. Recollections may also vary!

You can’t have a level playing field based on arm length or height. It has to be sex. Men generally have longer arms than women. My partner, same height as me and infact weighs less than me has a longer arm length. So by not using sex as a determinate we will end up with all male races etc.

[quote NotBadConsidering]I agree with what you’re saying Fox, but it’s not completely disingenuous to bring in Semenya because the IOC framework document which is hot news currently combines the two, both gender identity and sex variations:

stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?segment=11ld09yfs_amp_id*YW1wLTJwQUE2TWlocXhRS1R3VFNsOFc5UUE.[/quote]
they do indeed conflate the two horribly, which helps absolutely nobody except those who would like to keep us all swimming in a soup of “it’s complicated” while they drive a coach and horses through women’s sports. The IOC is utterly complicit in muddying the waters.

we just need to hold the line on how simple it is (when you take out the politics and the climate of fear).

I’m wondering how many more water based analogies I can dive into to keep it on topic to Phelps’ input