Michael Phelps believes in an even playing field

[DoYouSeaWhatISea]

Michael Phelps speaks to Christiane Amanpour CNN, and says that he believes in an even playing field, when asked about Lia Thomas, of Penn womens swim team.

Of course, P News interprets that as ironic because, erm, Michael has long arms.

I’d say if anyone understands competitive sport and fairness, it’s Phelps. I’ve liked him for a decade, and more so today.

Maybe someone clever than me could post an archive link to the PNews article, for those that don’t want to click. TIA.

nypost.com/2022/01/17/michael-phelps-ncaas-lia-thomas-controversy-very-complicated/

www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/01/18/lia-thomas-michael-phelps-university-pennsylvania/

I agree with pp's saying its not actually complicated. The 'it's complicated' is like a linguistics tool to soften what they are saying.

The arguments that the trans rights movement have been making often depend on making things that are quite obvious and simple into something complicated (eg male advantage in sport compared to women as a group). And also making things which are more complex (how individuals relate to masculinity & feminity, and what role that should play in society & policy) into simple blanket statements (trans people are the gender they say they are). It's baked into the methods and objectives - make trouble for things that we take for granted and appear settled. Get a new consensus (or appearance of it) on the desired social categories. If it can be done in sport it can be done anywhere.

It's a shame that because this is the avenue they are taking, no one has been working out how to genuinely include trans people in sport without excluding women. I can imagine that a trans person wld find it difficult to rock up to a sports club even to an open category or of their own sex. But this is not helping that. And it is definitely not taking women into account.

But the more it's discussed in normal media the better. We need journalists to ask big names their opinion.

@MaryGubbins

By the height category ussain bolt would be running against all the also-ran atheletes as received wisdom was sprinted should be short. So he’d never have gotten a race against the elites.

I recall reading that Bolt was originally being lined up for middle distance events, as he's unusually tall and rangy for a sprinter. I assume coaches talent spotting young athletes have to broaden their expectations now.

Lester Piggott was unusually tall for a flat jockey (5 feet 8/173 cm).

Stroller at 14.1 hh was technically a pony competing against much bigger horses; he won the Hickstead Derby and silver at the Olympics.

@Justkeeppedaling

Much as I hate the idea off men in women's sport, it's not a level playing field generally speaking, is it?

I'm 5'2". I'm never going to win the high jump or a sprint or anything else.

To be truly fair, we should categorise by height, weight, arm length etc to make sure everyone has a fair chance - a bit like they do in the Paralympics.

That's just really stupid. We have different strengths according to our body height. I'm shorter than you and women our height and shorter can and do excel at gymnastics, figure skating, all forms of dance, skiing, rock climbing, skateboarding, BMX and all ultra endurance sports. And while I'm short, my body is very compact with naturally high muscle density, so I'm stronger than many much bigger women. Depending on the sport, natural body composition matters far more than height. So should we be divided into ectomorphs, endomorphs and mesomorphs too?

Some very complicated shoulders here busy not conferring any advantage against women whatsoever.

I’m guessing they is crap at fly, otherwise that wingspan would confer a significant advantage.

Interesting that the American Swim Coach Assn is asking for clarification - link above.

Coaches have jobs because people, mainly kids want to swim competitively. At least half the people they are are coaching, are likely to be girls, and be pretty dedicated. However if it is not longer fun they will drop out and the coaches will lose their jobs.

DD used to love galas. (Swim meets in American.) All weekend spent hanging out poolside with kids both older and younger, cheering your friends on, and spending a couple of nights in a hotel which seemed terribly grown up. Not as much fun if you or your friends have little chance of winning, or if you are expected to share a room with someone you instinctively feel is a boy...even though you know the rules and welcome them as a girl.

A bit off topic, sorry, but I've always wondered, given the massive physiological advantages men have, and how those advantages combine to make training more effective, creating a loop of ever beneficial advantage - why the margins between men's and women's results even bigger.
There isn't but I wish there was a way of measuring men's and women's results equitably. As a competitive swimmer I believe that in general women train harder and have more grit and are used to working harder to achieve less. I suspect if it was a level playing field, women would trounce men.

Imagine if a male swimmer started presenting in a "feminine" way, but stayed on the male team, forcing their team mates to evaluate their attitudes and behaviour to both men and women. Just think about what this could do to help toxic masculinity and regressive steretypes in society.

All the lazy trainers I knew were male - they could pull it out in competition when they wanted to though. The most notorious one made it to the Commonwealths.

A lot of people here doing what generally TRAs always do - conflate intra and inter class differences.

We generally have only 2 sporting classes: males and females. In some sports we have weight classes as well. And then we tend to have age classes though note that what we consider competitive sport is open (a 50 year old could compete, their body just wont allow them. some age restrictions exist, but that is to protect young children).

To observe that participants within one class are different is fine. To then conclude that this means differences between classes don't matter is unintelligent at best, purposefully misleading in all likelihood. Not to mention that what this argument actually means is to not have male/female classes at all. That again though is ignored.

Beowulfa

Like these examples?
www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/footballs-first-faafafine-trans-rights-trailblazer-jaiyah-saelua-on-stardom-and-sisterhood

Saelua is fa'afafine and plays on the men's team for American Samoa.

www.npr.org/2021/08/06/1025442511/canadian-soccer-player-quinn-becomes-first-trans-and-nonbinary-olympic-gold-meda?t=1642604183933

Quinn is a trans man who plays for the Canadian Women's football team.

To me, this is how inclusion should work. You can express your gender identity how you like and you play on the team that matches your natal sex. There's no discrimination, no-one is excluded and (so long as trans men don't take testosterone) no-one is disadvantaged. While it may not be ideal socially that you can't take hormones during your active sporting career (because of doping violations / performance impact), I'm not sure how this is different from female athletes delaying pregnancy because of the impact on their training program.

'It's complicated' is used when the speaker means 'It's really, really simple but I know you won't like the answer.'

Far be it for me to assume someone's sex from their name but look at the results for the "non-binary" category of last years NYC marathon: looks like the male-type non-binaries outperformed the female-type non-binaries. Quelle surprise. If you categorize by anything else other than sex this is always going to be the result. Sure, there will be a few outliers but overall males will always outperform females.

@Greengate66

A bit off topic, sorry, but I've always wondered, given the massive physiological advantages men have, and how those advantages combine to make training more effective, creating a loop of ever beneficial advantage - why the margins between men's and women's results even bigger. There isn't but I wish there was a way of measuring men's and women's results equitably. As a competitive swimmer I believe that in general women train harder and have more grit and are used to working harder to achieve less. I suspect if it was a level playing field, women would trounce men.

Well that is something that is appearing to possibly be happening in ultra endurance sports. Across numerous fields, women are not only setting ultra endurance records but by extremely wide margins. Why this is happening is still up for debate. But along with possible physiological advantages that women may have in terms of ultra endurance, like higher body fat, twitch muscle fibres that recover faster. There are theories about women's psychology just making us better at keeping on going, pacing ourselves, not blowing out earlier on and dealing with sleep deprivation better.

Phelps says it's complicated. Errrm. No. It's not.

Anyone looking at that picture of this person, and saying with a straight face that their physicality conveys NO advantages over natal females at all, is either deluded, lying, an activist, or an outright idiot.
Or all four.

Secondly, how predictable and irritating, that women (brave ones) have been saying for YEARS that this is unfair (Sharon Davis, the 800m Rio runners who lost out to 1st, 2nd and 3rd places to athletes who were either male or with DSDs which gave then an advantage) - but it only takes an alpha MALE to state his concerns and everyone starts to question it in a different light.

Fucking typical.

but it only takes an alpha MALE to state his concerns and everyone starts to question it in a different light.

Fucking typical.

Yep. And I might be wrong but there doesn't seem to be much nastiness aimed at him. A top female swimmer would have got a different response.

@Manderleyagain

but it only takes an alpha MALE to state his concerns and everyone starts to question it in a different light.

Fucking typical.

Yep. And I might be wrong but there doesn't seem to be much nastiness aimed at him. A top female swimmer would have got a different response.

Yes, female swimmers (also applicable to other sports) would get comments along the lines of "She's just jealous/bitter/scared a TW might beat her/bad loser/..."

Females would be re-educated bullied until they submit to the male's preference. They don't have the luxury of expressing opinion.

IOC have taken massive cowards way out on this.

They imo don't really care too much about women's sports anyway well known for sexist boys club.

The trans thing v messy. And intersex athletes in women's competition been long term headache for them that they just don't need. Loads of attention, media, pressure from all sides. There's no way to make everyone happy.

Original T level they set, I read because low end of male range. Obv allowed some intersex athletes and trans athletes in female competition Olympics. Think different levels maybe 2 types sport, but both way more than standard female range.

Still everyone going on at them.

So the arseholes just dumped it on others and turned their backs. Not getting involved.

FFS.

Said up to sports bodies. What does that mean?

Bodies for all the different countries, agreeing on rules. So China Russia USA n Korea etc all get together and agree along with what 100+ other countries?

Come off it.

And oh they all need to make it evidence based.

So every sport, including different events within each sport. Needs to spend time money thought effort etc paying for research that is big enough sample and robust enough to be recognised as reliable study. And then .. have all the arguments with various orgs, individuals, govts,..... And on this again. Come to agreement? Erm hahahahahaha.

So IOC has said fuck this and dumped it on others, knowing that for relevant others to get rules agreed is in practice IMPOSSIBLE.

So there you go.

@Justkeeppedaling: a short body type is an advantage in gymnastics. Simone Biles is 142cm (4'8"). Admittedly, she's also a solid mass of muscle with insanely good balance and level of proprioception, so not sure it's worth trying to compete at this point

"IOC have taken massive cowards way out on this.

They imo don't really care too much about women's sports anyway well known for sexist boys club."

The IOC is so corrupt they could give FIFA a run for the money.

I'm guessing the 'its complicated' bit only means that it's complicated to actually come out and speak about this as a public person, with a career to protect.

Yes I heard the IOC are corrupt. Bottom line sports is entertainment, viewers will switch off if they are watching meaningless competitions, that may make a difference.

Personally, I think the Lia Thomas thing is not helping trans demands one bit and making a lot more people aware of the issues arising and women's rights.

Do you think this country will tolerate a transwoman footballer getting into the Women's England team? Imagine the front pages of the tabloids.

Depressingly, we already have form on this front via England Cricket.
Trans women in county team. Team mates say has no advantage. They just happen to do well when that particular person plays against an all female team, right🤨 Broken many women's records and also I believe plays or played for the men's.
Hardly a dicky bird from the fans. Because it's just women's sport isn't it. It's a warm up for the men's.

I just hope England women's manage a good win before they become swamped with men so they can claim the victory. We've got some really good women players due to the investment in sports for women in the last few years, it's a shame it's unlikely to last untarnished by entitled males.

www.outkick.com/penn-swimmer-alleges-lia-thomas-colluded-with-fellow-transgender-swimmer-before-race/