I am now very confused by the gender debate

[Workin8til6]

So. I am not up to date with all the latest debates. I’m not on Twitter for a start. But none of it seems to make any logical sense. I am left leaning and all my friends are very liberal. I think I must be missing something in this whole debate, I’m genuinely open to being told I’ve completely misunderstood.

A friend and I are part of the same Facebook group which is for buying and selling kids clothes. Someone made a comment about looking for clothes for a boy “that are quite girly” because their son likes girly colours and patterns. I thought “what a stupid thing to say, kids can wear anything, who cares”. Friend comments and starts off by saying something similar. Talks about how colours are for everyone, boys and girls don’t have to wear different things, everyone can just have their own likes and dislikes. Fine. But then goes on to say “maybe as an adult he will choose to identify as a different gender, or maybe he will be gender fluid, sometimes people have different genders to the one they are assigned at birth”.

Huh? I don’t get it. So we are telling kids that it’s ok for boys to like ballet and pink and girls to like blue and football. I can get on board with that. Also saw a campaign trying to remove girls and boys signage from kids clothing shops which I am all for. I thought this was all to remove outdated crappy stereotypes and to make everything accessible to everyone. But then we are saying that as an adult if you like frilly pink things then you should/could identify as a woman? Or if you’re into football and beer than you should identify as a man? So it seems like the removal of shitty stereotypes in childhood is actually just to make it easier for people to be “gender fluid”? Surely this is all just based on stereotypes too.

If not and it’s something deeper than that… what is it based on? If it’s not just surface level likes and dislikes? What does it mean to identify as a woman or man? I don’t identify as anything. I am biologically female. I am an adult female which means I’m a woman. Being a woman for me doesn’t mean liking pink and makeup and dresses. My identity is my personality and my own personal likes and dislikes and as far as I was aware none of this is anything to do with whether I’m male or female. It’s not even to do with whether you’re attracted to males or females because obviously women can be straight or gay or bi and men can be straight or gay or bi. So in what scenario does someone need to identify as a different gender?

Have I gone wrong somewhere? I previously thought we were making headway by removing outdated stereotypes. But now it sounds like people are being encouraged to identify as a different gender if they don’t conform to those old stereotypes? It seems people like my friend are simultaneously supporting the removal of gender stereotypes in childhood as well as the reinforcement of them in adulthood. Sorry this is probably sounding very naive.

You are right. It doesn't make any logical sense, hence the 'No Debate' and 'Just Be Kind'.

There is no logical argument. It's all about feeling not rationality.

This exactly what I asked my primary school teacher friend.

You're right OP. I always thought that moving towards a genderless world was the progressive option. Men wearing makeup and dresses, bring it on. It's not like skirts are inherently feminine - plenty of men around the world wear sarongs, kilts etc.

But now even a temporary inclination in a male toddler to put on an Elsa dress has people wondering whether their child is trans. A good friend of mine, an intelligent and highly educated woman, once worried out loud that her 3 year old son's favourite colour was purple, he liked sparkles and therefore his gender might not match his sex. I couldn't believe it.

It's not the removal of gender stereotypes in childhood, it's the enforcement of them, and it's regressive as fuck.

Nope OP. I think you see it clearly.

The emperor has no clothes.

And once you see it, you will never unsee it.

There are so many suggestions to help, but maybe the Stephen Nolan podcast (10 episodes but he covers a lot) may help.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09yk1fy

And this thread is a great resource for more links to read with articles, studies etc.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

No you’re right. A lot of people’s issue with gender ideology is that it’s regressive as fuck. Children have absolutely no idea about gender stereotypes until we as a society enforce it on them. Of course a child is going to think they’re trans if they’re told that all the things they like are for the other sex.

Have I gone wrong somewhere?

Nope. You're completely correct.

Yep, that's about it!

Why do we have to assume everything is due to societal factors and stereotyping?

The fact of the matter is more men are interested in cars than women and more women are interested in frilly things than men. Why do we have to read meaning into any old shite?

@NannaMcPhoo that’s not what I’m saying, I’m saying that a) kids should be free to like whatever they want without anyone being bothered whether it’s for girls or boys and b) just because a woman likes cars doesn’t mean she’s actually male?

Welcome to the rational side of the debate OP.

I think that people like your friend think they're being nice and progressive. In fact, they're being very very regressive.

@Workin8til6

Yes I agree with you but I also think too much is blamed on stererotyping.

@NannaMcPhoo

Why do we have to assume everything is due to societal factors and stereotyping?

The fact of the matter is more men are interested in cars than women and more women are interested in frilly things than men. Why do we have to read meaning into any old shite?

Errrrr….

Interested in frilly things - there's an image to conjour with this chilly evening. Men - cars and women - frilly things . Really, Nanna?

There do seem to be sex-based divisions in interests, likes & dislikes, inclinations. Everything I've ever read on the subject tells me males as a class are more risk-taking than females as a class. Nanna, this does not mean that women whose idea of a fun day is hurling themselves off cliffs or scuba diving are men. No. They are women who enjoy perilous activities.

[quote NannaMcPhoo]@Workin8til6

Yes I agree with you but I also think too much is blamed on stererotyping.[/quote]
We will only know that @NannaMcPhoo if stereotyping is removed first so any inherent sex biais might be discernible.

But as OP is saying, no sooner have there been there been steps to remove the stereotyping of tpys, clothes, jobs, interests etc. than they get angrily reinforced by much of the trans ideology

Fasten your seatbelt OP, this is a difficult journey. Your logic is good, you are fair minded, you are asking reasonable questions but you will soon be called a bigot for not telling lies and asking such questions, by random people in life.

It's hardgoing, but you are in the right place to get the answers you seek - bloody brilliant women here....

Basically Gender Ideology cannot function without the promotion of sex-based stereotypes!

Gender identity and gender roles aren't the same - there are trans women that are more masculine/have stereotypically 'Male' interests and vice versa. I hate having to describe them as such though it should just be 'interests'!

I hate 'girls' and 'boys' clothes for kids! I remember shopping with my friends DD who loves dinosaurs and in one shop there were personalised dinosaur pencils for boys and unicorns for girls... she was gutted! It's so regressive and crap and shouldn't have anything to do with your gender identity!

@JammyRedRooo sorry so then what is your gender identity? I thought the phrase gender roles referred to stereotypes about the role of each gender in society eg women should be caregivers and men should be breadwinners. Then your “gender identity” would be based on whichever one of those you confirmed most to?

Yes of course it’s regressive .

1950 . My 3 year old son wants to dress up as a princess but I told him that’s for girls and he needs to dress up as a cowboy. I don’t want everyone to laugh at him or think that he might be homosexual.

1990 . My 3 year old son wants to dress up as princess - that’s fine with us. It’s got nothing to do with his sexuality because he’s 3. It’s just clothes. And if he is gay when he’s older - that’s cool.

2022 . My 3 year old son wants to dress up as a princess . So we need to send him to a psychiatrist right now, get him on drugs when he’s 12 and and have his penis cut off and sterilise him when he’s 16.

Yes of course he will never be able to experience sexual pleasure in the same way as most adults and about 99.9% of the population will never consider him as a sexual partner.

And his risk of dying by suicide will be 22 times higher than for others of his age.

And he will be part of a great big medical experiment on heavy duty drugs for life. Drugs that are being used off label and we have no idea what the side effects might be after 20 or 30 years .

But at least we will have avoided any chance that he might be gay.

Please Tell me how that’s not regressive and homophobic.

@LittleWingSoul yes exactly. So if I reject gender based stereotypes then by that logic I also reject gender ideology. Where does that leave me?!

Apparently you now get 'trans-girls' who are 'tom-boys'.

@Flammkuchen

Apparently you now get 'trans-girls' who are 'tom-boys'.

Would this not just be personality?

There are no personalities any more, just identities.

It is incredibly hurtful if people don't affirm my identity.

@Flammkuchen

Apparently you now get 'trans-girls' who are 'tom-boys'.

Ok, that does it, I'm off to join Wonko the Sane Outside the Asylum.

OP, you will get posters ( I think one has already popped up) to say you have misunderstood and that gender roles/stereotypes (liking pink, frilly dresses, long hair, makeup, etc) have NOTHING to do with, and are entirely separable, from 'gender identity', which isn't based on stereotypes. And so you will ask, "great, so what's gender identity then?" They will NEVER tell you. The reason they won't give you a straight answer about what gender identity is is because in truth gender identity is intimately tied to gender roles and stereotypes but there is an awareness that this is a bit politically incorrect, a bit awkward. It's not very 2022 to say that a person literally is a woman because they like lipstick and lingerie and crying at romance novels. How do I know this? Because trans women have come onto this thread, and I have spoken to them in person, and they have said so. They say they are very feminine, prefer girly things, like ribbons and lace and that is why they are a woman. Also, just read any article about a young trans child. Count the number of stereotypes. Every single article will say things like 'she wanted her hair short', 'she wanted to play with trucks', 'she wanted to play football with her brothers', 'she wanted Spiderman pajamas'. This is nothing but stereotypes.

It's also a lie because it contradicts what trans organisations themselves say about gender identity. Stonewall says that gender identity is an 'innate sense of your own gender', and they define 'gender 'as masculine or feminine and culturally determined. That...sounds exactly like gender identity aligns with stereotypes to me (also how can we have an innate sense of a cultural construct?)

The gender bread person, a very popular trans educational resource says that gender identity is how far on the scale you are of 'woman-ness' or 'man-ness' , "based on how much you align with what you understand to be the options for gender."This seems like gobbledygook, but if you read the in depth explainer that accompanies the graphic it says that gender identity is about whether you fit better into the social role of 'man' or 'woman'. Again, it mentions social roles. So the reality is that you are absolutely correct: gender identity is reducing men and women to 'people who align with femininity or masculinity', and if you think that sexist shite then you are out of date.