I am now very confused by the gender debate

[Workin8til6]

So. I am not up to date with all the latest debates. I’m not on Twitter for a start. But none of it seems to make any logical sense. I am left leaning and all my friends are very liberal. I think I must be missing something in this whole debate, I’m genuinely open to being told I’ve completely misunderstood.

A friend and I are part of the same Facebook group which is for buying and selling kids clothes. Someone made a comment about looking for clothes for a boy “that are quite girly” because their son likes girly colours and patterns. I thought “what a stupid thing to say, kids can wear anything, who cares”. Friend comments and starts off by saying something similar. Talks about how colours are for everyone, boys and girls don’t have to wear different things, everyone can just have their own likes and dislikes. Fine. But then goes on to say “maybe as an adult he will choose to identify as a different gender, or maybe he will be gender fluid, sometimes people have different genders to the one they are assigned at birth”.

Huh? I don’t get it. So we are telling kids that it’s ok for boys to like ballet and pink and girls to like blue and football. I can get on board with that. Also saw a campaign trying to remove girls and boys signage from kids clothing shops which I am all for. I thought this was all to remove outdated crappy stereotypes and to make everything accessible to everyone. But then we are saying that as an adult if you like frilly pink things then you should/could identify as a woman? Or if you’re into football and beer than you should identify as a man? So it seems like the removal of shitty stereotypes in childhood is actually just to make it easier for people to be “gender fluid”? Surely this is all just based on stereotypes too.

If not and it’s something deeper than that… what is it based on? If it’s not just surface level likes and dislikes? What does it mean to identify as a woman or man? I don’t identify as anything. I am biologically female. I am an adult female which means I’m a woman. Being a woman for me doesn’t mean liking pink and makeup and dresses. My identity is my personality and my own personal likes and dislikes and as far as I was aware none of this is anything to do with whether I’m male or female. It’s not even to do with whether you’re attracted to males or females because obviously women can be straight or gay or bi and men can be straight or gay or bi. So in what scenario does someone need to identify as a different gender?

Have I gone wrong somewhere? I previously thought we were making headway by removing outdated stereotypes. But now it sounds like people are being encouraged to identify as a different gender if they don’t conform to those old stereotypes? It seems people like my friend are simultaneously supporting the removal of gender stereotypes in childhood as well as the reinforcement of them in adulthood. Sorry this is probably sounding very naive.

be able

People have generally gone along with it because they thought, initially

• there were so few 'transgender' people that it didn't have any impact (they didn't consider potential impact on women)

• Organisations like Stonewall have pushed certain narratives hard.

One could speculate on other reasons but -

well. This board is monitored and posts are reported and certain things are not allowed to be discussed.

Here are a couple of threads that may be useful:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4059873-Deep-Dive-on-the-Dentons-document

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

You'll need your Kendal Mint Cake. Good luck. Send a flare if you have any questions.

OP wait until you find out that Stonewall have redefined 'gay' to mean 'same-gender attracted' rather than 'same-sex'. This is not by accident. Someone at Stonewall recently tweeted that being gay was same-sex attraction, then had to delete the tweet.

@PinotPony

Thank you for posting this OP. I have been equally confused!

I understand the point about removing gender stereotypes for children. Let boys wear pink dresses if they want to.. it doesn't mean they are trans or non-binary or gender-neutral or gender-fluid.

But I'm still confused about how this relates to adults who undergo gender reassignment. If I am born a man but decide as an adult that I am uncomfortable in my body, that I genuinely "feel" like I am a woman and want to have gender reassignment surgery, then, regardless of whether I like blue or pink clothes, I identify as a gender different to the one assigned at birth. What am I missing here..?

Several things here.

Gender isn’t “ assigned at birth “ in the Uk or on any country I know of. Sex ( not gender ) is determined at conception and observed at birth ( in 99.9%+ of babies ) .

There’s no legal definition of gender in Uk law. It would be hard to define because it’s all about a feeling in someone’s head and also because it differs across time and culture.

Most people who legally change their legal sex on their official paperwork ( so called gender reassignment ) do not undergo any surgery.

People may chose to present themselves in clothing / hair / fashions as the opposite sex. They may change their name or paperwork. They may have surgery or hormone treatment but of course they cannot change biological sex - that’s impossible.

I don’t understand what you mean by “ feel like I am a woman “? Can you explain what that means ( without reference to stereotypes please ) ?

@Workin8til6

I was assuming that it must all be a lot more complex than this hence why I didn’t seem to understand. If it’s actually as it seems then… why the hell is everyone going along with it? Have we decided we don’t care about ridiculous gender stereotypes anymore? This is bizarre I can’t quite fathom that it is like this.

Follow the money...

That sounds conspiracy like. But honestly, follow the money.

Follow the fetish too.

The "this is a medical condition" thing was laid deep into our consciousness a few years ago

They now use the evidence of differences of sexual development to prove that trans is a "born this way thing." Many don't really understand basic biology so don't question it.

It was gold sealed by conflating with LGB rights. (HOW are they the same thing?!)

So now people think "you can wear what you want as kids, you can do what you want to your body as an adult."

It's the only wayvv be the cognitive dissonance works. They've been carefully taught via public humiliation eg JKR that to not think this is really bad.

Voila.

Anyone who is still under the impression that male transitioners all hate their body has not yet discovered the growing porn segment of transitioned males very much loving their male genitals for other’s adult entertainment. Be careful when you are on twitter and want to see the profile of someone. You might not see something ‘safe for work’. Including some young transitioned males holding office in political parties !

Within this category of porn, there is also the very fast growing segment of transitioned males with functional penises masturbating in female toilets. Complete with the sounds of women and children in the background.

No. Once you understand that so few people have their penises removed, you understand that a lot of the mantras relies on people not knowing this. It is a load of bollocks tied in with the ‘most vulnerable and marginalised’ mantra.

Are trans people discriminated against? Yes. More than women and girls? That has yet to be proven, in my opinion.

Do some transitioned males hate their genitals? I am sure they do. But certainly a large growing number still love theirs. Even though they now like to put a label of ‘girl’ or ‘lady’ in front the word dick.

OP your summary of the situation reflects what is currently going on. There has also been a huge issue of silencing women speaking about the issues. JKRowling being the best known. That probably best illuminates why so many simply go along with it.

I saw a good meme:

Sexism = the woman should so the dishes
Feminism = anyone, woman or man, can do the dishes
Gender ID = if you're doing the dishes, you're a woman

🙄

Anyone who is still under the impression that male transitioners all hate their body has not yet discovered the growing porn segment of transitioned males very much loving their male genitals for other’s adult entertainment. Be careful when you are on twitter and want to see the profile of someone. You might not see something ‘safe for work’. Including some young transitioned males holding office in political parties !

I clicked on a profile the other night to see q picture of a individual in a black pleather corset, sitting bare-bottomed on the side of a bed, male genitalia clearly visible.

I wasn't expecting the naked lower half at all.

Remember that poster who was with one of the political parties and some of us unfortunately looked at their twitter account and followed the profile link to their 'other' account.

That person was very proud of their nude pics and their erections and new breasts. I could be wrong, but I think elf ears were included somewhere.

Teenaged boys used to joke about imagining they had their own tits to play with.

I am still a relative newbie to all of this myself, was completely unaware all of this was going on till I read a thread on here a few months ago.

I've also read a few threads about new-borns and parents using the term gender, does this mean parents can now choose? I know some parents are disapointed at the babies sex so is gender now a way around that? It's quite concerning to be honest if that is the case.

Teenaged boys used to joke about imagining they had their own tits to play with.

Living the dream Linguini, living the dream!

@Helleofabore

Teenaged boys used to joke about imagining they had their own tits to play with.

Living the dream Linguini, living the dream!

And how they were lesbians trapped in boy bodies 🤢 Well, those couple of years where we all agreed this was sexist, creepy and insulting were good. Now we have to celebrate them.

Wow ok so this took a turn. “Can of worms” seems an understatement (and an unfortunate double entendre, given the topic!).

Very much a question of can’t unsee what I’ve now seen. It’s everywhere. And we aren’t allowed to say we disagree with what now appears to be the status quo? Or if we do we have to do it anonymously online, so we don’t have to worry about losing our jobs etc?

I’m sorry I’m so taken aback but I genuinely can’t believe this is where we are now. What was the point in all the progress? It seemed like we were finally able to genuinely tell girls that they can work in STEM or be astronauts or whatever they want, but now it seems like we have to add a disclaimer of “and it doesn’t mean you’re turning into a boy”?!

you got it, OP
welcome to the madhouse

Do you know, op, it's like a breath of fresh air someone coming in who's new to it and who can put so plainly how bonkers it is. I feel like I've been gaslit for so long, and was/ am willing to act with compassion re trans people but the whole thing is so topsy turvy, it's hard to believe. People here have been shouting about it for years because they have the exact same bewilderment as you.

Other posters just roll their eyes and tell us to "take it to the trans issues board". But it's not a niche issue. It's the whole of society right now.

ever hear the phrase 'womanhate is eternal'?

Errrrr….

Errr to you too

Yup. This is the entire debate in a nutshell. Gender identity is actually an archaic concept.

I don't identify as any gender. The clothes I wear, my hairstyle, the way I walk, talk and the programs I watch, music I listen to and books I read have fuck all to do with me being female. Also the toys I played with or games I played as a child

It seems to me that there are two ways to deal with extreme, toxic stereotypes. Either you call bullshit on the stereotypes, and go about your life as you choose. Or you set those same ridiculous stereotypes in stone, and then tie yourself in knots trying to slot everyone into one of them somehow (even if you have to invent 100+ extra nonsense stereotypes to try and facilitate this shoe horning)

Sorry this is quite selfish of me but my next thought now is how the hell do I protect my DDs from this? Are people at school going to be suggesting to them that they may be trans if they happen to like football or want short hair or won’t wear dresses?! Or what if they fancy girls, are people going to tell them that they’re trans instead of assuming they must be gay? I’m so confused I literally don’t understand why more parents aren’t raging about this.

@Workin8til6

Sorry this is quite selfish of me but my next thought now is how the hell do I protect my DDs from this? Are people at school going to be suggesting to them that they may be trans if they happen to like football or want short hair or won’t wear dresses?! Or what if they fancy girls, are people going to tell them that they’re trans instead of assuming they must be gay? I’m so confused I literally don’t understand why more parents aren’t raging about this.

Yes, this is exactly what is likely to happen. And lots and lots of parents are raging about it.