I am now very confused by the gender debate

[Workin8til6]

So. I am not up to date with all the latest debates. I’m not on Twitter for a start. But none of it seems to make any logical sense. I am left leaning and all my friends are very liberal. I think I must be missing something in this whole debate, I’m genuinely open to being told I’ve completely misunderstood.

A friend and I are part of the same Facebook group which is for buying and selling kids clothes. Someone made a comment about looking for clothes for a boy “that are quite girly” because their son likes girly colours and patterns. I thought “what a stupid thing to say, kids can wear anything, who cares”. Friend comments and starts off by saying something similar. Talks about how colours are for everyone, boys and girls don’t have to wear different things, everyone can just have their own likes and dislikes. Fine. But then goes on to say “maybe as an adult he will choose to identify as a different gender, or maybe he will be gender fluid, sometimes people have different genders to the one they are assigned at birth”.

Huh? I don’t get it. So we are telling kids that it’s ok for boys to like ballet and pink and girls to like blue and football. I can get on board with that. Also saw a campaign trying to remove girls and boys signage from kids clothing shops which I am all for. I thought this was all to remove outdated crappy stereotypes and to make everything accessible to everyone. But then we are saying that as an adult if you like frilly pink things then you should/could identify as a woman? Or if you’re into football and beer than you should identify as a man? So it seems like the removal of shitty stereotypes in childhood is actually just to make it easier for people to be “gender fluid”? Surely this is all just based on stereotypes too.

If not and it’s something deeper than that… what is it based on? If it’s not just surface level likes and dislikes? What does it mean to identify as a woman or man? I don’t identify as anything. I am biologically female. I am an adult female which means I’m a woman. Being a woman for me doesn’t mean liking pink and makeup and dresses. My identity is my personality and my own personal likes and dislikes and as far as I was aware none of this is anything to do with whether I’m male or female. It’s not even to do with whether you’re attracted to males or females because obviously women can be straight or gay or bi and men can be straight or gay or bi. So in what scenario does someone need to identify as a different gender?

Have I gone wrong somewhere? I previously thought we were making headway by removing outdated stereotypes. But now it sounds like people are being encouraged to identify as a different gender if they don’t conform to those old stereotypes? It seems people like my friend are simultaneously supporting the removal of gender stereotypes in childhood as well as the reinforcement of them in adulthood. Sorry this is probably sounding very naive.

Thank you for posting this OP. I have been equally confused!

I understand the point about removing gender stereotypes for children. Let boys wear pink dresses if they want to.. it doesn't mean they are trans or non-binary or gender-neutral or gender-fluid.

But I'm still confused about how this relates to adults who undergo gender reassignment. If I am born a man but decide as an adult that I am uncomfortable in my body, that I genuinely "feel" like I am a woman and want to have gender reassignment surgery, then, regardless of whether I like blue or pink clothes, I identify as a gender different to the one assigned at birth. What am I missing here..?

Isn't it more about how you perceive your body rather than how "manly" you feel..?

Sorry this came up in my active I didnt realise it was in the feminist topic, I only know one trans person so I'm no expert.

My gender identity is woman. But I dont think that means I have to subscribe to the societal standards that society has decided are for women. I hate wearing skirts. I'm going back to work early so DH is sharing my maternity leave. My favourite colour is blue. I'd rather go down the pub than out for cocktails with the girls. That's what I'm saying is bullshit, none of that stuff should be related to whether or not I'm a man or a woman. I always assumed trans people had dysphoria about their physical bodies rather than their interests. So someone feels they should have been born in a womans body therefore they identify as a woman, but the fact that they like frilly pink things should be irrelevant I guess?

But how would i perceive my body if I had a different gender identity to the gender I was assigned at birth? (I also don’t understand the phrasing of that, surely your “gender ah birth” is generally assumed to be your sex?) lots of women (and men) don’t like their bodies. Is it meant to be feeling that your body doesn’t belong to you?

Just to add I would not perceive myself as being “anti trans” as I support everyone’s right to dress however they want and to call themselves whatever they want. But I’m not sure I can get on board with gender ideologies if I understand it correctly so maybe I would be called anti-trans because of that.

In short, OP is right and her friends are just a bit hard of thinking
and I think this is the issue, and I have been guilty of this myself- thinking-oh, stereotypes, bad, women in manual trades good, men in make up good, let a thousand flowers bloom- and then not thinking much further. Then suddenly, wham, you have men in women's prisons and children being medicated and lesbians being told to just get used to 'girl dick'. Oh and sports too.

So then you have another think.

But by this time there has been ideological capture of many cultural, professional and political organisations and the questions are ruled out of order.

And many people don't want to be out of order - maybe for good reasons like wanting to keep their job.

Other people just like the feeling of being counter cultural- but only slightly, they don't want to actually put any effort into understanding what is happening or challenge the new orthodoxy.

@WeeBisom Christ “woman-ness” and “man-ness”?! Sounds like it belongs it the fifties.

Honestly I can't imagine having a different identity either, but that's what gender dysphoria is surely? We can't imagine it because we don't have it so it seems a completely alien concept. People transition to alleviate the discomfort that their biological bodies cause, not because they have a penis but like pink.

[quote Workin8til6]@LittleWingSoul yes exactly. So if I reject gender based stereotypes then by that logic I also reject gender ideology. Where does that leave me?![/quote]
In what sense do you ask? Do you mean can you believe that sex-based stereotypes are damaging but also be on board with gender ideology? I think lots of people do. Takes some bending of language and meaning and lack of discourse and that overused turn of phrase 'critical thinking' but yes, I'm sure lots of people do!

All of this talk of discomfort with one's body and gender dysphoria ignores the fact that the current concept of trans identity, which is being championed by Stonewall and those who want to reform the Gender recognition act, doesn't involve gender dysphoria at all. It is now considered rather old fashioned to hold the view that trans people are unhappy with their biological sex and so medically/socially transition in order to fit in as female or male. Rather, a trans woman can simply have the gender identity of 'woman', but have no gender dysphoria and be perfectly content with her male body including her penis. It is also old fashioned and 'medical gatekeeping' to assume that all trans people want or need medical transition - in fact, the GRA reform would enable trans people to legally become the other sex without any medical transition whatsoever.

100% with you OP. It is mind boggling and regressive and illogical! I'm completely baffled.

I was raised by trendy lefty parents in the 70s/80s to believe that girls could do whatever they wanted and boys did not need to conform to reductive, damaging masculine stereotypes. Feels like we've gone completely backwards.

When my boys were little they would happily put on princess dresses, fairy wings, nail polish etc. Did I for one second think they were girls?? Of course not. Did I think this was normal healthy behaviour that I conciously didn't mock, or make a big deal of - yes absolutely. World's gone mad!

@JammyRedRooo

Honestly I can't imagine having a different identity either, but that's what gender dysphoria is surely? We can't imagine it because we don't have it so it seems a completely alien concept. People transition to alleviate the discomfort that their biological bodies cause, not because they have a penis but like pink.

So how does that fact that very few trans women actually have surgery to remove their penises square with this?

@Hathertonhariden I didn't know that. I thought most would or would hope to eventually.

[quote JammyRedRooo]@Hathertonhariden I didn't know that. I thought most would or would hope to eventually.[/quote]
A lot of people don't know that, JammyRedRooo, I think the figures for those who don't are somewhere around 80-90%? Usually those who were heterosexual before transition and identify themselves as lesbian after transition. And they offend at same rates as heterosexual criminals, which is why keeping trans criminals out of women's prisons is so important. And why a lot of lesbians are giving up on lesbian dating apps..

For those who find it odd that heterosexual men transition, read about Blanchard's transsexual typology which explains it. After reading that I gained so much clarity on the whole topic!

You're asking the right (very obvious, imo!!) questions OP.

Sex and gender are different - fine.
How can a sex 'match' a gender? It's akin to saying your race matches your nationality.
If sex only refers to a body type how can your soul feel like it is one or the other? The sex stereotypes are so ingrained that people can't separate them.

I understand, on some level, people wanting to be the opposite sex.
I understand wanting to be/appear more masculine or feminine or a mixture.

None of this means you are and always were a 'gender' (which is not a sex) and should be treated as this sex for each and every circumstance.

Keep an eye on how genderists conflate sex and gender when asking questions. Once you see it, you can't un-see!

Anyone not very confused by all this is not paying enough attention.

Red, "woman" isn't a "gender identity" it's the noun used to describe human adults of the female sex.

Anyone interested in the concept of gender identity would do well to research the work of Dr John Money, specifically his experiments on David Reimer.

Op, what has been seen cannot be unseen. The emperor is buck naked, with cock and balls swinging in the breeze while everyone applauds his beautiful robes. Best of luck!

This series by The State Media is enlightening and a good primer.
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkvq4A8DyDt3YzMTdlZfwjDNH3-iEV8hW

I was assuming that it must all be a lot more complex than this hence why I didn’t seem to understand. If it’s actually as it seems then… why the hell is everyone going along with it? Have we decided we don’t care about ridiculous gender stereotypes anymore? This is bizarre I can’t quite fathom that it is like this.

I was assuming that it must all be a lot more complex than this hence why I didn’t seem to understand.

Absolutely! Me too! I have been asking on here, and elsewhere, for several years. Really basic stuff like 'ok, if woman isn't adult human female, what definition is proposed?'
Not a single logical answer. And that's just the first question.

Strip it back to what it is and it's nothing.

It's word salad.

There's a good example here of the sort of argument that takes place. The best effort they can do to define 'woman', and it's copied from a Twitter bot and makes no logical sense (and is possibly transphobic towards trans men, to boot).
letter.wiki/conversation/1232

Have had this experience recently. No sooner did I finish explaining to my adult sons grandma that him getting pink trainers from his fiance for Xmas didn't mean he was gay and no, people wouldn't assume he was gay, than I had to tell his aunt that they didn't mean he was trans.

@Workin8til6

I was assuming that it must all be a lot more complex than this hence why I didn’t seem to understand. If it’s actually as it seems then… why the hell is everyone going along with it? Have we decided we don’t care about ridiculous gender stereotypes anymore? This is bizarre I can’t quite fathom that it is like this.

Nope it’s that simple OP

The Emperor really doesn’t have any clothes…

This is the thing I have never been able to understand, OP.
What does "living as a woman" or "identifying as a woman" actually mean?
Nobody is ever able to give a sensible answer apart from maybe liking pink and princesses and glitter. Which is bollox.

@NoRaceInThisHorse

This is the thing I have never been able to understand, OP. What does "living as a woman" or "identifying as a woman" actually mean? Nobody is ever able to give a sensible answer apart from maybe liking pink and princesses and glitter. Which is bollox.

Nobody knows. Not even the government who want to base change of legally recognised sex on self-declaration to 'live as' their new 'gender'.

The recent report by the Women and Equalities committee on reform of the GRA said that they want to: "Remove the requirement for trans people to have lived in their acquired gender for two years" which "risks entrenching outdated and unacceptable gender stereotypes"

But they also believe that after a person has made a statutory declaration to live in their 'acquired gender': "It would also be possible to police statutory declarations more strictly, and to bring prosecutions for fraudulent declarations if it becomes apparent that the person had no real intention of living in the acquired gender."

So it's inappropriate for someone to 'live as their acquired gender' before getting a GRC, because it's all just stereotypes, but they think they would still be able to prosecute someone who wasn't 'living as their acquired gender' after getting a GRC. But how would they know?

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5802/cmselect/cmwomeq/977/report.html

So in what scenario does someone need to identify as a different gender?

To able to qualify in an Olympic weight lighting competition when you’re an old, injured, mediocre competitor?