I am now very confused by the gender debate

[Workin8til6]

So. I am not up to date with all the latest debates. I’m not on Twitter for a start. But none of it seems to make any logical sense. I am left leaning and all my friends are very liberal. I think I must be missing something in this whole debate, I’m genuinely open to being told I’ve completely misunderstood.

A friend and I are part of the same Facebook group which is for buying and selling kids clothes. Someone made a comment about looking for clothes for a boy “that are quite girly” because their son likes girly colours and patterns. I thought “what a stupid thing to say, kids can wear anything, who cares”. Friend comments and starts off by saying something similar. Talks about how colours are for everyone, boys and girls don’t have to wear different things, everyone can just have their own likes and dislikes. Fine. But then goes on to say “maybe as an adult he will choose to identify as a different gender, or maybe he will be gender fluid, sometimes people have different genders to the one they are assigned at birth”.

Huh? I don’t get it. So we are telling kids that it’s ok for boys to like ballet and pink and girls to like blue and football. I can get on board with that. Also saw a campaign trying to remove girls and boys signage from kids clothing shops which I am all for. I thought this was all to remove outdated crappy stereotypes and to make everything accessible to everyone. But then we are saying that as an adult if you like frilly pink things then you should/could identify as a woman? Or if you’re into football and beer than you should identify as a man? So it seems like the removal of shitty stereotypes in childhood is actually just to make it easier for people to be “gender fluid”? Surely this is all just based on stereotypes too.

If not and it’s something deeper than that… what is it based on? If it’s not just surface level likes and dislikes? What does it mean to identify as a woman or man? I don’t identify as anything. I am biologically female. I am an adult female which means I’m a woman. Being a woman for me doesn’t mean liking pink and makeup and dresses. My identity is my personality and my own personal likes and dislikes and as far as I was aware none of this is anything to do with whether I’m male or female. It’s not even to do with whether you’re attracted to males or females because obviously women can be straight or gay or bi and men can be straight or gay or bi. So in what scenario does someone need to identify as a different gender?

Have I gone wrong somewhere? I previously thought we were making headway by removing outdated stereotypes. But now it sounds like people are being encouraged to identify as a different gender if they don’t conform to those old stereotypes? It seems people like my friend are simultaneously supporting the removal of gender stereotypes in childhood as well as the reinforcement of them in adulthood. Sorry this is probably sounding very naive.

@Workin8til6 It’s because most parents are blissfully unaware - so far.
Those waking up to it are they whose pre-teens/young teens are suddenly announcing they’re demi-female, or non-binary, or other, and perhaps they have new pronouns and a new name they must be referred to by, or it will be detrimental to their mental health.
Then they find out about LGBTQ+ club in school, and Stonewall or other involvement in RSE curriculum.................and so it unravels

@Workin8til6

Wow ok so this took a turn. “Can of worms” seems an understatement (and an unfortunate double entendre, given the topic!).

Very much a question of can’t unsee what I’ve now seen. It’s everywhere. And we aren’t allowed to say we disagree with what now appears to be the status quo? Or if we do we have to do it anonymously online, so we don’t have to worry about losing our jobs etc?

I’m sorry I’m so taken aback but I genuinely can’t believe this is where we are now. What was the point in all the progress? It seemed like we were finally able to genuinely tell girls that they can work in STEM or be astronauts or whatever they want, but now it seems like we have to add a disclaimer of “and it doesn’t mean you’re turning into a boy”?!

Without exaggeration, every so often what is going on hits me and I have to sit down and double check that this is actually real and not some weird dream I'm having. We are actually, really and truly, living in a time of unparalleled scientific ability, understanding and achievement and at the same time, arguing that some women have penises and are lesbians and other lesbians should accept that or they are bigots. Placing violent male rapists in women's prisons. Arguing that Micheal Phelps has big hands proving all top athletes have physical advantages, ergo female athletes have no right to reject transwomen from theirs ports. Arguing that we should refer to 'people' in terms of pregnancy or smear tests, rather that women because use of 'women' is transphobic. And this isn't lunatics on the internet. It's official policy in many organisations. It's completely fucking mind-boggling.

@Workin8til6 safeguarding, safeguarding, safeguarding. Not sure how old yours are but you can't rely on the school to protect your kids from gender theory, you need to do it.

Talk to your kids and keep the lines of communication open. Make sure they understand that it's never ok for grown ups to ask them to keep secrets from you. Teach them about human bodies. Sex ed at home before school can lead them astray. Ask the school for the Relationships and Sex Ed curriculum and teaching materials. Ask if/what external groups and speakers are coming in. Ask for a meeting to discuss what approach they would take. Check the school's website for equality, trans and anti-bullying policies to see if you can work out how they would handle a child who claims a cross-sex id. Eg would they allow a boy in the girls' changing room?

Check out Safe Schools Alliance and Transgender Trend.

As pp said upthread, welcome to the madhouse!

@Workin8til6

Sorry this is quite selfish of me but my next thought now is how the hell do I protect my DDs from this? Are people at school going to be suggesting to them that they may be trans if they happen to like football or want short hair or won’t wear dresses?! Or what if they fancy girls, are people going to tell them that they’re trans instead of assuming they must be gay? I’m so confused I literally don’t understand why more parents aren’t raging about this.

I would say it depends to an extent on the school. And where you are.

And yes, lots of parents are raging about this, but you also must have noticed the pushback people get if they raise the subject?

OP I feel the same as you.

I've been losing sleep over this issue recently

I've started quietly challenging things when it comes up. Spoken to a few colleagues and most are sympathetic, have also sent in complaints to organisations where I see something clear to object to. I'm probably going to write to my MP as well.

My greatest disbelief is that there is nobody in any of our largest/most influential institutions (NHS/BBC/schools/universities) looking objectively at the whole thing and saying "hang on a minute, let's pause all this until we've ironed out what should be changing, if anything."

It's like safeguarding has gone out the window.

It seems it's just left to individuals to stand up, challenge and be counted. Fucking brave you have to be though.

@Workin8til6

Sorry this is quite selfish of me but my next thought now is how the hell do I protect my DDs from this? Are people at school going to be suggesting to them that they may be trans if they happen to like football or want short hair or won’t wear dresses?! Or what if they fancy girls, are people going to tell them that they’re trans instead of assuming they must be gay? I’m so confused I literally don’t understand why more parents aren’t raging about this.

Yes of course that’s what is happening. And children who are in the slightest way non gender conforming will be asked what their pronouns are. Which is apparently an acceptable way of peers telling a girl that she isn’t feminine enough and needs to shape up. Or to shame a boy who is not wearing the correct clothes / hairstyle or who likes the “wrong “ hobbies.

@DoubleTweenQueen

I saw a good meme:

Sexism = the woman should so the dishes
Feminism = anyone, woman or man, can do the dishes
Gender ID = if you're doing the dishes, you're a woman

🙄

Strangely enough though, this doesn't seem to be what's usually implied in the phrase "living as a woman". Frigging high heels and pink nail polish, more like.

No, you're right, OP. This is where the other side is coming from: Their argument is Heads I win Tails You Lose. In fact, your tale is a perfect example of the very complete lack of logic that the TRAs exhibit. You'd think, for example, that the final nail in the coffin would be the idea of the "trans nonbinary." I mean what the fuck even is that. First we're supposed to believe that it's somehow science that a man gets some sort of magical estrogen wash in utero and gets a lady brain. So what kind of gender fluid is a nonbinary wash? What's the opposite of a sex?

Strangely enough though, this doesn't seem to be what's usually implied in the phrase "living as a woman". Frigging high heels and pink nail polish, more like

YY, there seems to be two stereotypes of women in our society :

Women as universal carers

Women as decorative objects who are always gagging for sex ( with men natch )

When XY people claim that they are “ living as a woman “ it’s always the second stereotype that they mean. It’s never

“ I’m living as a woman because I have three kids under 5 living in a tiny flat waiting for a HA property for the past two years be wise I was fleeing violence . I can’t work because two of my kids have SN.”

Or

“ I’m living as a woman because I gave up my well paid job to care for our children and prioritise my male partners career so now I care for our two pre schoolers all day then work back shift in Tesco on the tills. At weekends my mum watches the kids while I work because my partner is out with his mates / at the football.”

“ I’m living as woman because I had to give up the job and home I love to move in with my elderly mother who had dementia and now I’m her carer 24/7. I struggle to leave the house as she’s not safe on her own. I get two hours respite a week when she goes to a club and that’s when I do the shopping “.

Spot on

@Rightsraptor

Interested in frilly things - there's an image to conjour with this chilly evening. Men - cars and women - frilly things . Really, Nanna?

There do seem to be sex-based divisions in interests, likes & dislikes, inclinations. Everything I've ever read on the subject tells me males as a class are more risk-taking than females as a class. Nanna, this does not mean that women whose idea of a fun day is hurling themselves off cliffs or scuba diving are men. No. They are women who enjoy perilous activities.

imprinting, the newborn child is treated differently according to sex, its subconscious social conditioning by the parents.

the female child is encouraged to be safe and cared for more closely, hugged more, hand holding etc, treated more gently.

the male child is treated more hands off and encouraged to take risks more and be more independent.

this also carries on into clothing and toys, how many babies have blue for boys and pink for girls, what first toys are bought for the child.

I will use my child as an example here I had no idea what sex he was before birth we had plain white and yellow clothing and bedding, he was bought cuddly toys.

as he got older he developed an interest in toy cars, this maybe because I bought him a set of magnetic cars as a baby, he also maintained his love of soft toys, as he became old enough to talk he wanted a play kitchen and a pushchair to push his soft toys around in and a tea set, but he felt annoyed that everything was pink "thats not for me" he would say, he did get a red play kitchen he was happy with and a tea set.

now where did he get the pink colour is not for me thing from? I assume TV as no one said anything to him and he wasnt in preschool. later on he developed an interest in trains probably because his grandfather is a train buff, he still loves cars, loves cooking but later lost the interest in trains.

he has developed an interest in nerf guns now which is because of me, he used to find them frightening and had no interest in them, I bought myself a Xshot vigilante for christmas and have now had to buy him a xshot harwkeye we both like shooting targets with them its fun.

so he is prove that everything is led, if he didnt have such a laidback parent it would be very easy to see the wanting a pushchair, kitchen and tea set "to be like mummy" being seen as somekind of milestone and steering the child from then on, or even doing so before without realising it like if mum really wanted a girl, or dad really wanted a son and if there are other children of other sexes that are treated differently in the family.

Some useful resources for OP:

Look up Stella O’Malley on YouTube; also Helen Joyce.

This book: www.amazon.co.uk/Irreversible-Damage-Teenage-Girls-Transgender-ebook/dp/B08NWMFP1S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=SC5W6RYCKK5E&keywords=abigail+shrier&sprefix=abigail+shrier%2Caps%2C64&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1642591696&sr=8-1

As a starter

@I0NA

Strangely enough though, this doesn't seem to be what's usually implied in the phrase "living as a woman". Frigging high heels and pink nail polish, more like

YY, there seems to be two stereotypes of women in our society :

Women as universal carers

Women as decorative objects who are always gagging for sex ( with men natch )

When XY people claim that they are “ living as a woman “ it’s always the second stereotype that they mean. It’s never

“ I’m living as a woman because I have three kids under 5 living in a tiny flat waiting for a HA property for the past two years be wise I was fleeing violence . I can’t work because two of my kids have SN.”

Or

“ I’m living as a woman because I gave up my well paid job to care for our children and prioritise my male partners career so now I care for our two pre schoolers all day then work back shift in Tesco on the tills. At weekends my mum watches the kids while I work because my partner is out with his mates / at the football.”

“ I’m living as woman because I had to give up the job and home I love to move in with my elderly mother who had dementia and now I’m her carer 24/7. I struggle to leave the house as she’s not safe on her own. I get two hours respite a week when she goes to a club and that’s when I do the shopping “.

This is so spot on!

@I0NA very true. My husband has our DDs (1+3) one day a week at the moment and now takes them to a dance class that I used to take them to when I was on maternity leave. Last time he went, two different people (women) came up to him and congratulated him basically on being able to look after his own two children for an hour at an activity. One even said “your wife must be so grateful you can help her out” 🤨 no one ever said well done to me when I took them. Universal carers indeed.

Incidentally DH’s parents think it’s absurd and unnecessary for him to only work 4 days a week so that he can spend more time with his children while also facilitating my career. Maybe it is still the 1950s after all?

OP thank you for posting. Like PPs I've been shaking my head about all of this for a couple of years now. it beggars belief. I'm frequently shocked by how things are and often find myself really worried about the future of a world where anybody is what/who they say they are. It's a safe guarding nightmare. The surgery / medical 'treatment" young people are undergoing is horrific. The damage being done to young people is incalculable. And women's hard won rights are being dismantled, leaving us vulnerable in so many ways. I have to take a step back and stop thinking about it for a bit if I can every so often, for the sake of my own mental health.
I find The Mess We're In on YouTube helps me to feel less isolated.
The Call Comes from Inside The House is a difficult thing to watch so you might need to work up to it but it is really informative about the reality of how far things have gone across the pond, and why we need to resist the sinister delusional gender ideology here.
Stay strong OP, and stay on this board. There are some amazing women here.