Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Where are all the middle aged women who should be transitioning

259 replies

IcakethereforeIam · 17/01/2022 12:11

I'm new here, I'm sorry if this has been covered or if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't understand the apparent lack of curiosity in some quarters at the massive increase in girls wanting to transition. I went to school in the 80s, while my friends and I knew vaguely about sex change it was not something we thought about applying to ourselves. Perhaps we just kept it inside.

Advocates for allowing children to transition (affirmation only? ), think they don't grow out of the desire. Others say over 80% desist (watchful waiting?). I believe the first cohort believe the uptick is down to an increase in awareness of the possibility of treatment. Surely, if that is correct, there should be hundreds or thousands of closeted women around my age wanting to change their sex. Where are they? Has anyone looked for them?

If they aren't there, then why the disconnect.

OP posts:
foxgoosefinch · 18/01/2022 21:57

@barleybadminton you confidently suggest we should talk to come gender non confirming teenage girls and people with experience of homophobia. Well, I’m a lesbian and have plenty of experience of homophobia. And I’ve talked to quite a few GNC kids. And the two overwhelming reasons that seem to be behind the increase in “trans/nb” identities are: 1) social pressures about appearance and fitting in. 2) desire to pigeonhole / label nascent adolescent sexuality, especially same sexual attraction, fear of puberty/sex and social contagion around this on the internet ad in social groups.

In the 80s and 90s makeup and dressing up were for older people - not teenagers - and you only dressed up in “feminine” clothes occasionally - the rest of the time you wore jeans and grungy checked shirts or tops. There were many more single sex schools (most in the U.K. state sector went co-ed around 2010). This coincided with a massive rise in youth culture around self-presentation on social media, massive pressure on girls to look attractive, growth in the porn culture. The pressure around appearance for young teenagers is immense. In particular, if you are not a stereotypically attractive girl you are made to feel absolutely dispossessed and disposable. This starts very very young now.

When I grew up, it was possible to accept that maybe you were just a bit ordinary or a bit plain or a bit ugly, and you might feel sad and upset about it, but there were other identities to take up - the clever one, the religious one, the kind one, the sporty one, the shy one, etc. etc. Since 2000 those other spaces, other identities, have been closing. By the late 2000s, if you weren’t pretty or popular, there was nothing left for you. If you were a bit plain - well, you didn’t fit into femininity and you were worthless, because no matter how clever or funny or nice you were, none of that mattered if you weren’t pretty and socially successful.

That’s some background just as a brief sketch of what’s been happening in the past couple of decades. And of course that coincides with all sorts of social media and porn culture and the increase in acceptability and affordability of cosmetic surgery, as well as the decline in single sex schooling and so on.

I work with young people and have seen this transition happening, and it’s made me sad for them for a long time. But the key thing is that girls who aren’t pretty or aren’t up for the whole social media duckface/contouring/obsessive appearance thing don’t have other tribes to go to. It’s been a monoculture for the last twenty years. No different music and academic and indie tribes to be part of. So now you take a girl who’s a bit awkward or androgynous or not stereotypically pretty, or is afraid of puberty, or is self conscious about her wonky teeth or big nose or whatever, or doesn’t want to grow up yet, or is having crushes on her friends, is in a position where she is alienated from the main teenage culture, and the gender/trans cult is the only other option. Basically - dislike your body or feel unpretty or alienated? You’re trans.

  1. lots of teenage girls have same sex feelings. It’s common and a natural part of puberty, whether the girls end up straight or gay or bi. But this in conjunction with 1) now produces an immediate labelling of “queer/trans”. And any generalised teenage depression feeds into this too - with questionnaires on which gender and sexuality you are constantly floating around the internet. I’ve seen first hand a rather lonely and vulnerable girl on a Discord chat, who had substantial family problems, loneliness and was attracted to women, and very self-conscious about being what she felt as “ugly”, be eventually convinced by others that actually she was trans and a they/them. It made me very sad to see it, but I could not intervene as there was a lot of brainwashing about “terf rhetoric” going on and not listening to anyone who didn’t “affirm”. But to my eyes the poor girl was perfectly normal, just in a suffocating family environment during lockdown and very self-conscious about her appearance, her lack of friends and her same-sex crushes - and she was easy prey for being convinced of being a transman when actually she needed some social interaction, to live away at college and to enjoy dating girls and feeling less pressure about her appearance.

A young daughter of a close colleague is transitioning at the moment after being non binary for a while. It’s sad to see because when you talk to her as someone with some life experience, she is clearly a young lesbian who believes that she has to be validated by a “community” by becoming trans. She really just wants a girlfriend and not to feel that she’s ugly compared to the current beauty standards which are enforced on young women. If you don’t fit them, you have to reject them utterly.

Middle aged women for the most part more often can see those beauty standards for what they are, and care a lot less about being thought not to conform to them. We also grew up in a time when there were other options for one’s life, too.

Epiphanies · 18/01/2022 21:57

I think Barley is right (although it pains me to say it Blush) that there are a lot more Transmen around now then 20 years ago of middle age... but its still a very very small number relatively speaking. I wasn't exaggerating when I said I knew 8. Only 4 I know as in socially and only 2 of those I would consider friends. But I'm in Brighton.. it has an LGBT population of 14% and obviously right at the heart of this issue.
statistically if you compare transmen within the figures of women as a whole in that age group its a tiny %. Even within lesbians.
I think Barley is right there is a rise. But I'm afraid that I think that of those I know I don't really buy the 'feel like a man' narrative. Its a much deeper issue to do with multiple things and definitely driven by Trans agenda too. There's a lot of social media from these transmen I know. They're not all quietly transing for sure. Also Testosterone is a big part of it. But then I'm on HRT so who am I to judge (although my HRT is proven to improve various health indicators but I believe Testosterone doesn't. Heart disease being a risk).
I might be sounding ignorant here but wondering if taking Testosterone is a bit akin to a snort of coke in how it makes you feel?? I know it changes confidence and attitude. Is it just a medical 'drug'. Certainly it has a bodybuilding link for similar reasons.

NotBadConsidering · 18/01/2022 22:07

You’re in Brighton? Skewed data.

Are they all coming out as trans men in their 40s, 50s, 60s, as opposed to being trans for years and deciding to live in Brighton among like minded people? How old are the 8 you know?

Epiphanies · 18/01/2022 22:09

@foxgoosefinch

100% this

If you want your child to 'make it through' then they have to find another outlet. And even then its no guarantee. Because school isn't it. And all of the fun stuff of old (although with questionable safeguarding) has gone. Such as discos, youth clubs and dare i say it underage pubs n clubs. Really what's left?!?

We had a young teen friend of one of my DDs visit our home recently and she identifies as Pansexual. She's 13. My DD is a bit Hmm . This child was a bit in shock at how utterly boring our actual real gay life is... i feel it was a huge disappointment and I think she's subsequently has a rethink on being Pansexual Grin
How different to my teen years where I'd have loved to have met a real life gay person!

Epiphanies · 18/01/2022 22:16

@NotBadConsidering yes skewed data as i said. Not just cos of population but because Brighton.....And still tiny amount relatively speaking.. But of the 8 none are under 35. My 2 friends are 48 and 51. The 51 year old started 10 years ago, the 48 year old about 5 years. The rest are variable degrees of progressed.
But I wouldn't have known a single transman in 2005.
As I said though...tiny amounts...
And yes they have been in Brighton longer than trans but they're not from Brighton. Who from LGBT community is?!?
They were all butch lesbians when I met them. The others who aren't friends I know from work and hobby groups and are more SM friends these days iyswim.

HeirloomTomato · 18/01/2022 22:22

Middle aged women - or ‘AFAB folks’ to use the lingo - have too much shit to deal with already. Who wants to deal with the hassle and risk of taking testosterone and having mastectomies on top of menopause, teenage offspring-wrangling and becoming invisible and irrelevant to everyone else?

Maybe women also have less motivation to transition because once we hit menopause we become more gender neutral anyway. Men ignore us after 40 so we can happily subsist in our ‘non-binary’ invisible realm of jeans, Birkenstocks and make-up free living.

When not being sent death / rape threats for having opinions, that is.

barleybadminton · 18/01/2022 22:26

In the 80s and 90s makeup and dressing up were for older people - not teenagers - and you only dressed up in “feminine” clothes occasionally - the rest of the time you wore jeans and grungy checked shirts or tops. There were many more single sex schools (most in the U.K. state sector went co-ed around 2010).

This just isn't true, there were hardly any single sex state schools in the 80s and 90s, I grew up in a large city and there was just one very small girl's comprehensive school and no boy's school except the local private school.

The 80s and 90s were the age of Rambo, Madonna dancing round in a leotard, shoulder pads, big hair, conspicuous consumption and then lad's mags and girl power into the 90s. And casual sexual harassment, page 3 on workplace walls, queer bashing and section 28. Action films were full of butch men rescuing pretty helpless women and the city centres were full of lairy casual blokes and young women in stillettos and miniskirts dancing round handbags. Perhaps it wasn't like that in your social circle, but let's not rewrite history - being visibly gay or gender nonconforming was incredibly dangerous back then, far more than now and things are still a long long way from ideal. Even boys having long hair and girls wearing trousers was controversial in the 80s, its little wonder trans kids felt unable to come out. There were 1500 kids at my upper school and not one came out as LGBT because it wasn't safe to do so, homophobic bullying was rampant, and not just from the kids but teachers and other adults as well.

NotBadConsidering · 18/01/2022 22:36

barleybadminton are you going to answer my question?

You said the reason there isn’t a huge spike in middle aged females transitioning is because they have already transitioned, then you said the huge spike in teenagers indicates to you there must be lots of female adults who are too scared to transition. Which is it?

Epiphanies · 18/01/2022 22:43

As damaging and reductive as I feel the current state of affairs is, I am ever the optimist... that when it finally settles down gender binary will have erroded in the process. I.e. everyone will wake up and realise they're taking shite and gender is still a social construct!
As a girl in exactly the situation described above mid 80s I can confirm that was indeed the case re: homophobia. So there is some improvement in terms of visibility. But what is becoming increasingly clear to even my most all embracing trans-supporting friends is that the current state of affairs is just as homphobic, primarily disadvantaging lesbians and seemingly being led by gay men who are cheering on young girls on YouTube talking about surgery on their clitoris (at age 13 i didn't even know what that was and nevermind YouTube we didn't even have a video recorder...that's how ancient I am!)...

The OP is right though... teens didn't have access to the things needed to look like a porn star. Waxing, beauty treatments etc were not a thing at all. I didnt even know grown women who did that in the 80s. Perms yes, and that was it. Porn was very hard to access. Relied on videos being lent around. Everyone was poorer. And teens didn't have vast wardrobes of clothes. Just jeans and tshirts, jumpers.

Beamur · 18/01/2022 22:45

I grew up in the 1980's too. Gender non-conformity amongst the teens I knew was high. I didn't know very many out gay people. Turned out a very large proportion of my friends were gay, but didn't say so! They're much more open now, but it was a real stigma at the time. But it wasn't a very inclusive world around sexual orientation then. I was at a single sex school for several years and one girl asked out another girl, she was horrified (and really horrible about it) another straight friend was teased throughout high school for being a lesbian - she wasn't.
Society was still quite conservative, as described above. But I don't recognise the comment about non conforming though. Maybe it was different depending on where you lived. Women wearing trousers has never been controversial in my lifetime.

CompleteGinasaur · 18/01/2022 22:45

If kids couldn't come out as either gay or (more pertinently) trans in the 80s and 90s, Barley, how did the transmen manage to skip straight to full-on transition in the hordes you previously suggested?

barleybadminton · 18/01/2022 22:50

@NotBadConsidering

barleybadminton are you going to answer my question?

You said the reason there isn’t a huge spike in middle aged females transitioning is because they have already transitioned, then you said the huge spike in teenagers indicates to you there must be lots of female adults who are too scared to transition. Which is it?

No, I said that there were at least comparable rates of those who transitioned earlier with the number of kids referred for treatment by GIDS today, and that even back then those assigned female at birth tended to transition earlier, as they do now though the gap is shrinking fast. And there are, as a poster above points out, many middle aged trans men who are transitioning later in life.

Historically there were more trans women who presented for treatment than trans men. Why that is is really unknown, it may be that trans men were able to find solace in the butch community - there was no real equivalent in Europe at least for trans women or feminine men. Or it maybe that those assigned male at birth felt more confident coming out in middle age. Or it could be something else, who knows, I doubt we ever will but what we do know is that the numbers of trans men and trans women are equalising as is the age they present for treatment so the Jane Fae and Caitlynn Jenners (who first began physically transitioning in the 80s incidentally then detransitioned) will soon be as rare as trans men transitioning in middle age.

CheeseMmmm · 18/01/2022 22:51

Just catching up.

Quentin crisp was transgender?

I did not know that.

Btw anyone who hasn't seen the naked civil servant it's an absolutely brilliant film. Just one of those films that stays with you. Hurt amazing. And crisp's comments hold on I'll find one.

barleybadminton · 18/01/2022 22:52

@Beamur

I grew up in the 1980's too. Gender non-conformity amongst the teens I knew was high. I didn't know very many out gay people. Turned out a very large proportion of my friends were gay, but didn't say so! They're much more open now, but it was a real stigma at the time. But it wasn't a very inclusive world around sexual orientation then. I was at a single sex school for several years and one girl asked out another girl, she was horrified (and really horrible about it) another straight friend was teased throughout high school for being a lesbian - she wasn't. Society was still quite conservative, as described above. But I don't recognise the comment about non conforming though. Maybe it was different depending on where you lived. Women wearing trousers has never been controversial in my lifetime.
Girls at my very lare comprehensive school were banned from wearing trousers (and boys from having earrings) although it was finally overturned in my last year of school in 1990.
Thirtytimesround · 18/01/2022 22:52

I know it’s an unfashionable thing to say, but the three lesbians I knew when I was in my teens / early twenties are all now married to men and have children with their husbands… They would have seized the opportunity to transition as teens if they’d been given the option. And those children would never have existed. I think my (middle aged) generation had a lucky escape from all this.

Epiphanies · 18/01/2022 22:53

If you have a group of 1000 lesbians and in 2005 one of them transitioned, and in 2021 10 of them did. That's a big rise. Multiple that by the lesbian population of a 'gay city'. It will appear many. There's at least 10,000 lesbians in Brighton and there's definitely more than 100 trans men.
I can confirm I've never met a transman who wasn't first a lesbian.. unless they're under 30.

CheeseMmmm · 18/01/2022 22:57

Barley, the killer line at the end of the film when he's getting older.

'You cannot touch me now. I am one of the "stately homos of England'

Do you see this film as more to do with gay rights or trans rights?

I admit I haven't read the book. Is it more to do with the QC trans identity?

Pondtoad · 18/01/2022 22:58

Good question. My 16 year old currently has 4 friends who have changed their names and are identifying as male now. Yet neither dh nor I have any friends in this position that we know of.

CheeseMmmm · 18/01/2022 23:04

Google fascinating!

In crisps 90s, he wrote 'i have finally had it explained to me... That I am transgender'.

Thank you barley for that info!

The naked civil servant though I would say is firmly about homosexuality. And it was an incredible film, widely recognised as brilliant, bafta winning etc.

CompleteGinasaur · 18/01/2022 23:06

Crisp wrote several books of essentially memoirs, the most well known being The Naked Civil Servant and How To Become A Virgin. I love them, they're absolutely hilarious and profoundly moving at the same time. None of them deal with transgender issues in any way, as Crisp only realised/announced his transgender status a few months before he died in 1999 at the age of 90.

foxgoosefinch · 18/01/2022 23:09

This just isn't true, there were hardly any single sex state schools in the 80s and 90s, I grew up in a large city and there was just one very small girl's comprehensive school and no boy's school except the local private school.

Come on, you’re talking rubbish here. Of course it’s true. I went to school in a region of the north west where nearly every school in the entire county - including all the private schools and the vast majority of state schools - was single sex. I went to a single sex comp and most of the comprehensives were single sex apart from a handful of co-ed ones, usually the most poorly performing ones. Then I worked partly in university admissions and public policy in HE for a long time in the 2000s, doing school visits and policy work; and this was relocated across large areas of the country. Most started to go co-ed throughout the 2000s as fashions in education policy began to tend that way - often alongside the shift to Academy status. There are in fact some single sex (both state and private) schools still about - more than you’d think - but much less than before. Of the cohort I’ve just seen in the late 2021 university admissions cycle, maybe 10% of applicants were from a single sex school (though these are often grammars). Before around 2010 it was a lot higher, and in fact in the 90s the majority of other girls I was at college with came from single sex girls’ schools.

As for boys with long hair and girls wearing trousers being dangerous in the 80s - are you kidding me?! Most girls in the 70s and 80s and 90s rarely didn’t wear trousers! Everyone under 40 in the entire north west basically wore only dungarees or shell suits for an entire decade. Boys’ hair was long and floppy to varying degrees throughout the 70s-90s - just watch some television from any point in those decades! It was only in the 2000s that buzz cuts on boys and the whole hyper-done up femininity for girls started to make an appearance. I honestly cannot believe you know anything about the twentieth century given you say that. It’s just a bit insane, and completely mad to any of us who lived through those decades, where we barely put a scrap of makeup on for years and lived in jeans and trainers for any occasion.

foxgoosefinch · 18/01/2022 23:09

*replicated not relocated! Typos galore today, sorry!

barleybadminton · 18/01/2022 23:10

@CheeseMmmm

Barley, the killer line at the end of the film when he's getting older.

'You cannot touch me now. I am one of the "stately homos of England'

Do you see this film as more to do with gay rights or trans rights?

I admit I haven't read the book. Is it more to do with the QC trans identity?

They discussed in an a piece which was published posthumously

"At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that. All my life, I have wanted to be part of society without having to alter my daydream, my own reality. When it comes to sex, these days I’m asexual. Nevertheless, I’m now convinced that it has been my view of myself and not my view of men that has been my trouble."

"I no longer see myself as homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandably used to describe me. I don’t actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I’m not physically a woman."

"I don’t think I ever consciously questioned my sexuality, my identity, my gender, or my daydream. It folded around me rather like the dream of Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard, the last line of which is, “Life that can be cruel, can also be kind.” The dream that meant so much to her finally closed about her. The dream that I am really a woman closed about me entirely. I went through life as though I was a boy in the outer world, but in my head I went on as though I were a woman. This explains why my life has been so strange."

Published in the dreaded Pink News I'm afraid: www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/21/quentin-crisp-reflects-on-trans-identity-in-exclusive-final-autobiography/

334bu · 18/01/2022 23:14

. I don’t actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I’m not physically a woman."

At least knew that he was still male.

NotBadConsidering · 18/01/2022 23:15

No, I said that there were at least comparable rates of those who transitioned earlier with the number of kids referred for treatment by GIDS today, and that even back then those assigned female at birth tended to transition earlier, as they do now though the gap is shrinking fast. And there are, as a poster above points out, many middle aged trans men who are transitioning later in life

At least comparable rates? So you’re saying that if these teenage girls weren’t presenting as children to paediatric gender clinics, then they would just be presenting to adult clinics like they always have?Confused. So you’re saying they’re just being seen 10 years sooner? Why don’t the paediatric gender clinics say that then?

The poster hasn’t said there are “many” the post who lives in Brighton knows 8. Is the rate of presentation of older females transitioning climbing at the same rate as teenage girls? Of course not. Is the rate in adult clinics of presenting females dropping?

I doubt we ever will but what we do know is that the numbers of trans men and trans women are equalising as is the age they present for treatment so the Jane Fae and Caitlynn Jenners (who first began physically transitioning in the 80s incidentally then detransitioned) will soon be as rare as trans men transitioning in middle age.

Suuuure it will…