the breast milk trade

[Bindelj]

Dear all, I am investigating the commercial breast milk trade in the UK. I wrote this about the situation in Cambodia 4 years ago (www.truthdig.com/articles/an-example-of-capitalism-literally-milking-the-poor). Horrific. The way things are going we will be seeing desperately poor women in the UK being coerced into selling milk. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this issue? If so, I am on [email protected] or please respond here. Many thanks.

If some weirdo wants to buy breastmilk, why not let them?

Why not indeed? What harm does it do? Who benefits? What does it cost you?

What a useful exercise this thread is in critical thinking.

Are you really making the case that a situation where a woman in the U.K. who chooses to express and sell her milk is on par with a situation involving an impoverished woman in Uganda being forced into breastfeeding adult men?

Are women in the U.K. not capable of being exploited, is it only poor women in African countries or are there poor women in the U.K. too?

If they want to sell it - why shouldn't they? It's their's to sell.

Is it? I thought the breast milk a mother produced was for her baby, strictly speaking doesn't it belong to the baby? We are mammals after all, mothers don't produce it on tap, it's for a specific purpose, it's for a specific person. The baby.

Ohholy you're ignorant. Milk is made on demand. If a pump demands it my body makes it. So no, it doesn't 'belong' to baby.

There are risks to women from breastfeeding. They are just not talked about because for most people the benefit of being able to feed their own baby cancels them out and of course there are benefits such as lower risk of breast cancer as well.

But it can deplete your body of nutrients. It can make you tired or fatigued. You are at higher risk of mastitis which can be a very serious infection by itself or lead to sepsis. Expressing in particular is more likely to lead to mastitis than breastfeeding normally on demand. Most women won't want to wake up at night to pump unless they are exclusively pumping for a newborn (I did this and can confirm it was many times worse than just feeding the baby, and baby night feeds are bad enough) meaning you're not stimulating supply in a normal way, that can cause problems.

Expressing over and above what your baby needs is also not always benign. Although bodies can adapt to different demands eg twins Vs a single small baby, you can cause problems such as oversupply because you are messing with the natural supply and demand cycle. Oversupply means that the flow can be too fast for a baby leading to discomfort for them and difficulty feeding, among other problems, I believe some gastrointestinal problems for the baby.

Trying to establish breastfeeding is hard enough without adding another source of confusion and pressure. What if a woman's partner wants her to pump milk to sell and is putting pressure on her to do this or even becoming angry if she cannot? There are huge emotional ties to breastfeeding so any perceived pressure adds a risk of emotional harm.

Who is demanding it when it's being sold?

If the supply meets the demand and the demand comes from men, then we truly are commercialising breast milk which is made by a mothers body for her baby. It is no longer for the baby but for the men buying it.

Prioritising a man's fetish over a child being fed, is something I never thought I'd see on a parenting forum.

Oh, I have to go now, the Victorian ages are stopping by to take us back to the times of wet nurses and starving babies.

Hurrah for progress!

@Perfect28

Ohholy you're ignorant. Milk is made on demand. If a pump demands it my body makes it. So no, it doesn't 'belong' to baby.

Well some of us pumped for hours and got 5ml for the night feed so I call BS on that.

Bertie in that situation it's the one pressuring the woman who is causing the harm. In fact in all these hypotheticals and relating to sex work too. If the woman is pressured or has no choice that is the problem, not the transaction inherently. I also think you're being a tad extremist. Pumping one extra bottle every few days is not going to cause mastitis. I am in fact in this situation myself where I pump a little to ease the pressure as my baby transitions to no milk in the day (at nursery and won't take it). I still want the supply to remain constantish for the days we spend together and he will feed. There are many different possible situations and scenarios. Personally i disagree with the pressure to donate this as opposed to sell it, because as a woman I should inherently want to do good/help others etc as my sole and driving force?

Oh Holy you're right, some. And some have different experiences. It is a supply and demand relationship though, whether it's a baby or a pump demanding it. A baby is just much more efficient.

Prioritising a man's fetish over a child being fed, is something I never thought I'd see on a parenting forum.

It's so desperate isn't it, women excusing all kinds of egregious male behaviour.

@Perfect28

Oh Holy you're right, some. And some have different experiences. It is a supply and demand relationship though, whether it's a baby or a pump demanding it. A baby is just much more efficient.

Let's save it for the professionals then, the fetishists can go elsewhere. They don't need it, the babies do.

@Alekto

Prioritising a man's fetish over a child being fed, is something I never thought I'd see on a parenting forum.

It's so desperate isn't it, women excusing all kinds of egregious male behaviour.

Choosy choice 'feminism' centres men.

I hope Julie is reading all this.

Your milk thread brought them out to the yard. It seems there's quite a market for taking food from babies mouths and offering it up for cash to well...whoever wants it really.

@BertieBotts

There are risks to women from breastfeeding. They are just not talked about because for most people the benefit of being able to feed their own baby cancels them out and of course there are benefits such as lower risk of breast cancer as well.

But it can deplete your body of nutrients. It can make you tired or fatigued. You are at higher risk of mastitis which can be a very serious infection by itself or lead to sepsis. Expressing in particular is more likely to lead to mastitis than breastfeeding normally on demand. Most women won't want to wake up at night to pump unless they are exclusively pumping for a newborn (I did this and can confirm it was many times worse than just feeding the baby, and baby night feeds are bad enough) meaning you're not stimulating supply in a normal way, that can cause problems.

Expressing over and above what your baby needs is also not always benign. Although bodies can adapt to different demands eg twins Vs a single small baby, you can cause problems such as oversupply because you are messing with the natural supply and demand cycle. Oversupply means that the flow can be too fast for a baby leading to discomfort for them and difficulty feeding, among other problems, I believe some gastrointestinal problems for the baby.

Trying to establish breastfeeding is hard enough without adding another source of confusion and pressure. What if a woman's partner wants her to pump milk to sell and is putting pressure on her to do this or even becoming angry if she cannot? There are huge emotional ties to breastfeeding so any perceived pressure adds a risk of emotional harm.

I wondered about the statement that "it's a supply and demand" situation. There seemed to me something different between the "demand" of a baby to satisfy its hunger and an artificial "demand" made by a pump. Your post explains the facts, whereas for me it just felt different.

OhHolyJesus

Perfect28

Ohholy you're ignorant. Milk is made on demand. If a pump demands it my body makes it. So no, it doesn't 'belong' to baby

Well some of us pumped for hours and got 5ml for the night feed so I call BS on that

Same here OhHoly

I see that the people justifying normalising selling breastmilk have zero idea of the physical difficulties that women can encounter when trying to pump milk. I wonder what impact it will have on women struggling to pump if there is a social message that it's so easy that women can pump a little extra for a little extra income during maternity leave. What happens if young women absorb that narrative and make plans that incorporate funding their maternity leave through pumping and find they physically can't?

This is very reminiscent of the male prostitution advocates who seem to have no idea that unwanted penetration can hurt and cause physical injury.

Oh man, the pumping! One of ours was very poorly at 6 weeks old - so I sat for days with horrible suction pulling my nipples 4" into a weird, thumping, noisy machine. Hours.

My nipples were red raw and bled so much the protein content of the milk must have doubled at least.

I still get a bit twitchy when I hear a raspy machine noise.

So, yes, pumping was interesting because I could feed my previous babies without much bother, I was a proper Bellagio Boob Fountain. But, the machine? I'd have struggled to earn enough from flogging my breastmilk to pay for the electricity it used.

I mean, look at this bit.

I appreciate you probably think breastmilk is disgusting and worthless, but not everyone shares your view.

It's a carbon copy of the way the misogynistic prostitution lobbiers try to claim feminists are prudish and never have sex in order to discredit us! The other poster should really feel ashamed of herself, but I don't expect she will.

It's not a tactic that can work on me for the obvious reason that I know exactly how long I breastfed for and how many babies I have breastfed. Sadly, it may well work on the lurkers, because I can't actually disclose my breastfeeding credentials without making myself more identifiable than I would like. This may remind you of other debates...

Good observation, @PurgatoryOfPotholes.

@gogohm - well, you think you sold your milk to lovely gay couples.

If I was a man with a baby fetish and wanted the Real Stuff then I'd pretend to be Tom Daley in order to get what I wanted too.

Besides, babies adopted by a gay male couple have exactly the same dietary requirements as babies adopted by anyone else - formula is a perfect alternative - not milk which has gone rancid in the post.

Someone's bodybuilding friend called her an idiot for pumping milk for the neonatal unit, where donor breastmilk does actually save premature babies' lives, because he would have paid for it.

How will normalising selling milk impact on donations of breastmilk to hospital milk banks?

formula is a perfect alternative - not milk which has gone rancid in the post

Are you representing formula companies here?

No formula isn't "perfect".

I don't want to get into a breast milk vs formula debate, but you're massively overstating to say formula is "perfect".

It's fine, most babies do fine on it

But, it's not the same as breast milk, we don't even understand what's in breast milk, how could it be? We didn't know about breast milk feeding the good bacteria in the gut until recently, for example, nor how important that is for overall health.

On a population level, there are differences. Breast milk is better, all things being equal.

All things are not equal though, there are other factors that come into play, and for many families, formula may work better for them.

Breast milk is still the ideal though and you're gaslighting mothers to pretend it's not.

Also, please don't refer to this mother's milk as "rancid". That's just offensive.

@newnamenewyear

formula is a perfect alternative - not milk which has gone rancid in the post

Are you representing formula companies here?

No formula isn't "perfect".

I don't want to get into a breast milk vs formula debate, but you're massively overstating to say formula is "perfect".

It's fine, most babies do fine on it

But, it's not the same as breast milk, we don't even understand what's in breast milk, how could it be? We didn't know about breast milk feeding the good bacteria in the gut until recently, for example, nor how important that is for overall health.

On a population level, there are differences. Breast milk is better, all things being equal.

All things are not equal though, there are other factors that come into play, and for many families, formula may work better for them.

Breast milk is still the ideal though and you're gaslighting mothers to pretend it's not.

Also, please don't refer to this mother's milk as "rancid". That's just offensive.

You are deliberately misinterpreting what Vivarium is saying by removing context from her post.

newnamenewyear

You're deliberately misreading her post.

A baby's own mother's milk is ideal. Expressed milk from multiple women whose babies may be at a very different stage of development, and has been frozen, thawed and reheated is a different kettle of fish.

Expressed milk carries some of the same issues as formula, such as hygiene. You need to meticulously clean the bottles you store it in and the pump.

If you find it offensive to be told that breastmilk will go off if not properly stored, this is a you-problem. I recommend you do not pump milk for storage for anyone's baby until you have refreshed yourself on safe storage procedures.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I see that the people justifying normalising selling breastmilk have zero idea of the physical difficulties that women can encounter when trying to pump milk. I wonder what impact it will have on women struggling to pump if there is a social message that it's so easy that women can pump a little extra for a little extra income during maternity leave. What happens if young women absorb that narrative and make plans that incorporate funding their maternity leave through pumping and find they physically can't?

This is very reminiscent of the male prostitution advocates who seem to have no idea that unwanted penetration can hurt and cause physical injury.

Is that fair? I HATE pumping, and don’t get a lot. I didnt have support around with my first two and they weren’t the easiest of babies so pumping involved sitting there and trying to look after baby while feeling like a cow and feeling miserable that I couldn’t cuddle my baby, plus it took multiple sessions to get a bottle. Obviously I didn’t pump a lot. Friends however filled freezers with ease. However, I breastfed fairly easily. We have a huge issue in the uk with normalising breastfeeding and need to improve breastfeeding rates. Am I, by whipping out a boob and feeding baby on the bus, minimising the physical and supply challenges other women have breastfeeding? Am I being like a male prostitution advocate who has no idea that unwanted penetration hurts?

Oh, and you are, yourself, perfectly demonstrating a drawback to getting breastmilk from perfect strangers.

It means you have no idea what standards of hygiene they follow, or if they even understand that milk can go off.

For example, I used to use nipple shells to collect any accidental leakage from the other breast when feeding. It went in the freezer straight away. I wouldn't want to feed my baby the contents of a milk shell from a woman who had worn a shell until it was full and put it in the freezer at the end of the day.

^Is that fair? I HATE pumping, and don’t get a lot. I didnt have support around with my first two and they weren’t the easiest of babies so pumping involved sitting there and trying to look after baby while feeling like a cow and feeling miserable that I couldn’t cuddle my baby, plus it took multiple sessions to get a bottle. Obviously I didn’t pump a lot. Friends however filled freezers with ease.
However, I breastfed fairly easily. We have a huge issue in the uk with normalising breastfeeding and need to improve breastfeeding rates. Am I, by whipping out a boob and feeding baby on the bus, minimising the physical and supply challenges other women have breastfeeding? Am I being like a male prostitution advocate who has no idea that unwanted penetration hurts?^

Do you actually think that I am saying that going about your life breastfeeding your baby is like lobbying for the normalising of women selling their milk?

You said normalising selling milk minimises awareness of the physical challenges so can be emotionally and in this case financially challenging for women putting it into their maternity plan. Doesn’t all that apply to breastfeeding too? That young women absorb the narrative that it’s easy and this is damaging to their breastfeeding journey when they find they physically can’t ?