How can I, as an individual transwoman, can make a stand against the TRA avalanche?

[simmonslulu]

A thread created in response to a post on another thread.

Any advice gratefully received

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

On a micro level Don't use womens spaces. Make a point of using the mens loos and widen the bandwidth of male behaviour, appearance and clothing by being yourself in male spaces. On a societal level, write. Get help if you aren't a gifted writer but write and get your views all out there wherever you can.

For your own safety's sake don't use the men's. Stupid advice.

The slu is reference to it being suggested in an earlier thread now deleted that I had cunningly added lu to Simmons to imply slu short for slut. That I was having a secret laugh at the expense of women generally and MN posters in particular by displaying in open sight my misogyny and true motivations for posting on MN.

Imagine the mental somersaults one would have to go through to take a simple abbreviation of a name and make it a misogynist slur.

Why was the last thread deleted?

@simmonslulu

The slu is reference to it being suggested in an earlier thread now deleted that I had cunningly added lu to Simmons to imply slu short for slut. That I was having a secret laugh at the expense of women generally and MN posters in particular by displaying in open sight my misogyny and true motivations for posting on MN.

Imagine the mental somersaults one would have to go through to take a simple abbreviation of a name and make it a misogynist slur.

You're being a bit aggressive.

If someone notices that your name contains a word that is sometimes a slur, it is natural for them to wonder. And far better for them to ask, rather than simply silently assuming the worst.

In the past 24 hours, women on this forum have been criticised for not being familiar enough with internet vernacular used elsewhere, and now they're being criticised for being au fait with internet vernacular used elsewhere!

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

In the past 24 hours, women on this forum have been criticised for not being familiar enough with internet vernacular used elsewhere, and now they're being criticised for being au fait with internet vernacular used elsewhere!

Sorry if I came across as aggressive it is just frustration at being asked constantly to justify myself and my motives.

I'd suggest discussing with other like minded trans people, and leaving this corner of the internet as a safe space for trans widows.

@TinselAngel

I'd suggest discussing with other like minded trans people, and leaving this corner of the internet as a safe space for trans widows.

Hi Tinsel

@TinselAngel

I'd suggest discussing with other like minded trans people, and leaving this corner of the internet as a safe space for trans widows.

Post your own thread on transwidows and I promise not to post on it

@TinselAngel

I'd suggest discussing with other like minded trans people, and leaving this corner of the internet as a safe space for trans widows.

It's a fair point. I wonder how black Mumsnet would react if a white poster popped over there to ask how to be a good ally. Whereas, though it does attract bunfights I would expect such a request to feel less invasive on aibu. Also, it would be useful for an actual trans person to discuss the erosion of boundaries and the ever expanding umbrella, as posters would be less likely to cry transphobia, pearl clutching and accusations of hysteria.

So my advice would be to write a brief post explaining why you position yourself on the side of women's rights and ask what others do/ would like etc.

The reality is, this is the one corner of the internet that transwidows can share their experiences (mostly) without judgement and Reddit, Twitter and the rest of Mumsnet really are your playground in a way it can never be for them.

@TinselAngel

I'd suggest discussing with other like minded trans people, and leaving this corner of the internet as a safe space for trans widows.

The topic is "sex and gender discussions". Not trans widows. Any way probably not a good place for OP to get good advice since a lot of it contradicts the EHCR.

" If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your gender identity. In very restricted circumstances it is lawful for an organisation to provide a different service or to refuse the service to someone who is undergoing, intends to undergo or has undergone gender reassignment"

EHRC 22 December 2021

But that's really a problem with Mumsnet splitting the boards the way they did. A feminism area should be first and foremost about women, but by splitting it into chat and (retracted) debate it changed the perceived meaning of the space. As expected, chat is mostly tumbleweed and fluff these days and s&g has become the home of robust debate, whereas really it would be better to have the debate side on aibu and leave this corner a female focused space.
But they did what they did and like a good woman I won't complain or say I told you so.

For your own safety's sake don't use the men's. Stupid advice.

Link to all the cases where TW have been attacked using the gents. Clue - no evidence whatsoever.

Any way probably not a good place for OP to get good advice since a lot of it contradicts the EHCR.

What specific advice on this thread contradicts the EHCR?

Identify with us

@titchy

Any way probably not a good place for OP to get good advice since a lot of it contradicts the EHCR.

What specific advice on this thread contradicts the EHCR?

For example:

Stay out women's spaces, whether toilets, changing rooms, shelters or shortlists.

I'm pretty sure that there are exceptions outlined that cover all those examples, someone who is a regular here will be able to outline what exactly it entails.

But you know what, it's a bad law. It's a law borne from homophobia; it's a law that places male desire over vulnerable females for no tangible reason at all.
Gender dysphoria is bad. I get that, but you know what, your pain doesn't justify harming and impinging on the rights of others. Eating disorders, disabilities, sexual orientation there is no other movement that seeks to dismantle the rights and safety of others for ideological reasons.

It's an unclear, terrible terrible law and it needs to be repealed asap.

It is not hate for rape victims to want same sex counseling.
It is not hate for vulnerable female prisoners to be placed in an environment where there is no state sanctioned rape.
It is not hate for environments that have always safeguarded using female offence patterns (like girl guides) to continue to do that if that is what their resources are and the community their resource provided for.(Rant now but GG are in breach of the equalities act by their so called inclusive policies by excluding minorities who recognise same sex environments)
It's not hate for women to be given a snowballs chance in hell with sport and prizes by giving them their own category.
And finally it's not hate for us, women, not to want a non female person in our spaces for dignities sake.
#nothankyou

Redlake, can you clarify how the following suggestion Stay out women's spaces, whether toilets, changing rooms, shelters or shortlists contradicts the European Convention of Human Rights?

This is the simplified version for children and teenagers, but I've just read through articles 1 to 14 on the full version, too. It doesn't say anything about letting a subset of male people into the spaces set aside for female people to get undressed in. But that's not surprising for a document from 1950.

extract

Summary of the preamble

The member governments of the Council of Europe work towards peace and greater unity based on human rights and fundamental freedoms. With this Convention they decide to take the first steps to enforce many of the rights contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 1 - Obligation to respect human rights

States must ensure that everyone has the rights stated in this Convention.

Article 2 - Right to life

You have the right to life.

Article 3 - Prohibition of torture

No one ever has the right to hurt you or torture you. Even in detention your human dignity has to be respected.

Article 4 - Prohibition of slavery and forced labour

It is prohibited to treat you as a slave or to impose forced labour on you.

Article 5 - Right to liberty and security

You have the right to liberty. If you are arrested you have the right to know why. If you are arrested you have the right to stand trial soon, or to be released until the trial takes place.

Article 6 - Right to a fair trial

You have the right to a fair trial before an unbiased and independent judge. If you are accused of having committed a crime, you are innocent until proved guilty. You have the right to be assisted by a lawyer who has to be paid by the state if you are poor.

Article 7 - No punishment without law

You cannot be held guilty of a crime if there was no law against it when you did it.

Article 8 - Right to respect for private and family life

You have the right to respect for your private and family life, your home and correspondence.

Article 9 - Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

You have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. You have the right to practise your religion at home and in public and to change your religion if you want.

Article 10 - Freedom of expression

You have the right to responsibly say and write what you think and to give and receive information from others. This includes freedom of the press.

Article 11 - Freedom of assembly and association

You have the right to take part in peaceful meetings and to set up or join associations ­ including trade unions.

Article 12 - Right to marry

You have the right to marry and to have a family.

Article 13 - Right to an effective remedy

If your rights are violated, you can complain about this officially to the courts or other public bodies.

Article 14 - Prohibition of discrimination

You have these rights regardless of your skin colour, sex, language, political or religious beliefs, or origins.

www.coe.int/en/web/compass/european-convention-on-human-rights

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Redlake, can you clarify how the following suggestion Stay out women's spaces, whether toilets, changing rooms, shelters or shortlists contradicts the European Convention of Human Rights?

No, it's our own British EHRC. The OP should not be ordered by GC people not to do somthing which is their human right.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]This is the simplified version for children and teenagers, but I've just read through articles 1 to 14 on the full version, too. It doesn't say anything about letting a subset of male people into the spaces set aside for female people to get undressed in. But that's not surprising for a document from 1950.

extract

Summary of the preamble

The member governments of the Council of Europe work towards peace and greater unity based on human rights and fundamental freedoms. With this Convention they decide to take the first steps to enforce many of the rights contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 1 - Obligation to respect human rights

States must ensure that everyone has the rights stated in this Convention.

Article 2 - Right to life

You have the right to life.

Article 3 - Prohibition of torture

No one ever has the right to hurt you or torture you. Even in detention your human dignity has to be respected.

Article 4 - Prohibition of slavery and forced labour

It is prohibited to treat you as a slave or to impose forced labour on you.

Article 5 - Right to liberty and security

You have the right to liberty. If you are arrested you have the right to know why. If you are arrested you have the right to stand trial soon, or to be released until the trial takes place.

Article 6 - Right to a fair trial

You have the right to a fair trial before an unbiased and independent judge. If you are accused of having committed a crime, you are innocent until proved guilty. You have the right to be assisted by a lawyer who has to be paid by the state if you are poor.

Article 7 - No punishment without law

You cannot be held guilty of a crime if there was no law against it when you did it.

Article 8 - Right to respect for private and family life

You have the right to respect for your private and family life, your home and correspondence.

Article 9 - Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

You have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. You have the right to practise your religion at home and in public and to change your religion if you want.

Article 10 - Freedom of expression

You have the right to responsibly say and write what you think and to give and receive information from others. This includes freedom of the press.

Article 11 - Freedom of assembly and association

You have the right to take part in peaceful meetings and to set up or join associations ­ including trade unions.

Article 12 - Right to marry

You have the right to marry and to have a family.

Article 13 - Right to an effective remedy

If your rights are violated, you can complain about this officially to the courts or other public bodies.

Article 14 - Prohibition of discrimination

You have these rights regardless of your skin colour, sex, language, political or religious beliefs, or origins.

www.coe.int/en/web/compass/european-convention-on-human-rights[/quote]
This is not the EHRC guidance.

Stay out women's spaces, whether toilets, changing rooms, shelters or shortlists.

You seem to be suggesting it's against the law for a biological male to use male toilets, changing rooms, shelters etc?

Are you REALLY saying that?

@titchy

Stay out women's spaces, whether toilets, changing rooms, shelters or shortlists.

You seem to be suggesting it's against the law for a biological male to use male toilets, changing rooms, shelters etc?

Are you REALLY saying that?

It's a quote. Not my words.

Look, if you're male and you're using female facilities then that's a shitty thing to do. If you're someone who disagrees with this then I can't help you.

@Leafstamp

Look, if you're male and you're using female facilities then that's a shitty thing to do. If you're someone who disagrees with this then I can't help you.

The law talks of gender reassignment and single sex spaces. Not males using female facilities. If you're someone who disagrees with this I can't help you either. No more questions. I'm off to bed now.