If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

@FlyingOink

Just rejoining this and have yet to catch up, so apologies if this has already been said.

they have done a study on trans men who were given puberty blockers as girls. Bone scans have shown that their pelvises do not expand into the usual female wider shape and configuration, but remain narrow like a males pelivis. It’s why there are fertility and childbirth complications in transmen, they are more likely to require a c-section due to this nonfemale narrow pelvis. Their limbs also show higher bone density...which would in an archaeological setting be called “robust” bones...more indicative of a man.

This is an out and out lie. They've only been putting girls on blockers for a few years and girls who have taken these drugs for either precocious puberty or to transition have low bone density, collapsing vertebrae, crumbling jaws. Certainly not big thick manly bones. Not at all.

Think you are confusing transwomen with transmen. Bone density has not been shown to decrease in any study done on transmen. They have ranged from results of bone density comparable to control cis women or greater bone density than control cis women comparable to cis men. All have shown larger bone size comparable to cis men. So who’s lying? Certainly not me.

“Studies to date show the baseline bone density in trans men is similar to the general population...When testosterone is initiated in trans men, the changes in BMD are not as robust, but body composition changes and direct effects of testosterone on the bone likely protect BMD. Low levels of estradiol likely still offer bone protection in trans men as in cis men.”

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

@Helleofabore

Just to add to the ‘hard to tell a skeleton’, a male who has gone so far as to have had their facial bone structure changed, will be picked up too.

The archaeologist will see the bone structure has been damaged and healed, but the fact these clues are present won’t definitively indicate whether the skull is male or female. And due to the % of women having cosmetic facial surgery being so much higher than the % of men....signs of facial cosmetic surgery would probably be more of an indication of a female skull than a male one.

@FlyingOink
The bones don't get bigger and stronger because the transman works in a warehouse and takes testosterone.

Yes they do. It’s biology my friendly neighbourhood Oink.

Strength training, or any physical job that results in strength training increases muscle size, which in turn increases bone mass and density. Any physical activity that is more than 4hrs a week does this,,,and if your job is a physical one, you are doing at least ten times this.

What is one thing women are advised to do to avoid osteoporosis? Strength training.

And, testosterone absolutely impacts this both in the ease of developing lean muscle mass and the amount of muscle mass you can build up...ever look at a body builder? And again, knock on effect, testosterone protects against bone density loss plus makes it easier to add muscle mass which in turn increases bone mass, size, density.

Cosmetic surgery that females undertake doesn't often involve the bone it's mostly skin and muscle, and cartilage. Of course there are exceptions, but it's not the "everybody does it" that you think it is. Facial surgery to alter a male skull to "feminised it" will involve bone - jaw reshaping isn't just a wee botox jab, ffs. Forehead ridge, size and shape, thickness of the skull...all of these differentiate male bones from female bones in a general way.
Body bones also have major differences caused by puberty. Males in general tend to have longer arms and shorter legs, females the opposite. But you know this. You're just wasting everyone's time. I answer for the benefit of the lurkers. Keep up the good work, we love sunlight!

The archaeologist will see the bone structure has been damaged and healed, but the fact these clues are present won’t definitively indicate whether the skull is male or female.

I doubt by that stage any archeologists would fail to recognise the particular bones being shaved and the degree of them being shaved.

You seem to think women have their brow ridges shaved down to that extent.

I think you might be indulging in some fanciful thinking that future archeologists will not know exactly who those bones belong to.

You are very heavily invested telling women that in the future males and females will have not distinct differences. Why is that?

*Tweet 2: Amazing to see people on this thread, or the QTs, explaining how abortion is necessarily "traumatic," how many women "regret" it, etc. Also the "Frankenstein" trolls. Finally the misogynists and woman-haters of the terf movement speak their name. No, terfs, you're not feminists.'

A professor of English, critical theory, and women's studies. Showing how much empathy Lavery has for women and the difficult decisions and struggles they face. I can't say what I think of that tweet.*

Shocking that anyone would want to continue talking to any biological male who thinks he has the right to tell women how they should react to an abortion. Why is this not a hate crime? No Lavery, you are not a feminist. You are a woman hater.

@EmpressCixi you have misunderstood. The comment was about puberty blockers and their impact on bone strength when given to female children. The report you link itself says:

"Also unknown are the long-term effects of puberty blockade, the effect of changes in body composition and the optimal type, timing, dosage, and route of administration of GAHT for bone outcomes."

So, are there any studies that you know of looking at the bone density of young adult trans men who have been on puberty blockers for a significant period of time, prior to starting cross sex hormones?

There are a whole range of markers to help distinguish male from female skulls and most of them aren't touched by FFS. A little bit of shaving bone off the mandible and some cheek implants aren't the foolproof disguise you think they are.

Bone density has not been shown to decrease in any study done on transmen. They have ranged from results of bone density comparable to control cis women or greater bone density than control cis women comparable to cis men. All have shown larger bone size comparable to cis men.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

Except — that isn’t what the study at this link actually says, about the cohort given puberty blockers.

[quote EmpressCixi]@FlyingOink
The bones don't get bigger and stronger because the transman works in a warehouse and takes testosterone.

Yes they do. It’s biology my friendly neighbourhood Oink.

Strength training, or any physical job that results in strength training increases muscle size, which in turn increases bone mass and density. Any physical activity that is more than 4hrs a week does this,,,and if your job is a physical one, you are doing at least ten times this.

What is one thing women are advised to do to avoid osteoporosis? Strength training.

And, testosterone absolutely impacts this both in the ease of developing lean muscle mass and the amount of muscle mass you can build up...ever look at a body builder? And again, knock on effect, testosterone protects against bone density loss plus makes it easier to add muscle mass which in turn increases bone mass, size, density.[/quote]
Women are advised to do resistance exercise to maintain existing bone density.

Did you not know that the late teenage years are a pivotal time in bone development for teenage females? By age 20, a human female has developed 95% of the bone mass she's ever going to have. You can develop a little further during your 20s, but after that it's all about keeping what you already have, not building additional bone mass.

@HaroldMeeker

Cosmetic surgery that females undertake doesn't often involve the bone it's mostly skin and muscle, and cartilage. Of course there are exceptions, but it's not the "everybody does it" that you think it is. Facial surgery to alter a male skull to "feminised it" will involve bone - jaw reshaping isn't just a wee botox jab, ffs. Forehead ridge, size and shape, thickness of the skull...all of these differentiate male bones from female bones in a general way. Body bones also have major differences caused by puberty. Males in general tend to have longer arms and shorter legs, females the opposite. But you know this. You're just wasting everyone's time. I answer for the benefit of the lurkers. Keep up the good work, we love sunlight!

I did not say “everybody does it”, I stated the fact that a higher % of women engage in facial cosmetic surgery to alter facial bone structure than do men, which means that an archaeologist is more likely to view a skull with signs of cosmetic surgery as female than a male skull. Balance of probabilities and all that. Which completely stifles your strange assertion that an archaeologist seeing a skull with facial bone structure that has signs of cosmetic surgery would “pick up on it” and declare “must be a man”. That wouldn’t happen.

And yes, PUBERTY is indeed what kicks off the sexual dimorphism of bone structure between adult males and adult females and so strange you have about faced on this because you said this was not the case when I pointed out that PUBERTY blockers stop this natural bone structure dimorphism from happening, and that this combined with opposite sex hormone therapy from late teens then results in transmen with bone structure and density more similar to that of a male person than a female. So nice of you to actually admit the impact of PUBERTY on BIOLOGY of male and female bodies.

What common female cosmetic surgery involves altering bone?

Who are you answering, empress? Your rant is weirdly disconnected from the quote you posted.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
Did you not know that the late teenage years are a pivotal time in bone development for teenage females? By age 20, a human female has developed 95% of the bone mass she's ever going to have. You can develop a little further during your 20s, but after that it's all about keeping what you already have, not building additional bone mass.

Yes I did know, and this is the age group we are talking about. Children going on puberty blockers then taking hormone therapy from late teens through their twenties. This absolutely affects the bone density and mass they can acquire or not acquire depending on whether they are transmen or transwomen.

[quote EmpressCixi]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
Did you not know that the late teenage years are a pivotal time in bone development for teenage females? By age 20, a human female has developed 95% of the bone mass she's ever going to have. You can develop a little further during your 20s, but after that it's all about keeping what you already have, not building additional bone mass.

Yes I did know, and this is the age group we are talking about. Children going on puberty blockers then taking hormone therapy from late teens through their twenties. This absolutely affects the bone density and mass they can acquire or not acquire depending on whether they are transmen or transwomen.[/quote]
Re-read what you wrote.

Puberty is integral to bone development in females. This is why teenage girls with anorexia or other eating disorders that interfere with their menstrual cycles commonly struggle with bone density in later life. If the progression of puberty is interfered with, it is simple logic that the bone mass that should have been laid down from 12-18 won't be. Going on hormone therapy later isn't any good, because that crucial development window will have been missed.

And that is what we are seeing has happened to those prescribed medication to interfere with their adolescent development.

I will supply data on this in subsequent posts.

@Helleofabore

The archaeologist will see the bone structure has been damaged and healed, but the fact these clues are present won’t definitively indicate whether the skull is male or female.

I doubt by that stage any archeologists would fail to recognise the particular bones being shaved and the degree of them being shaved.

You seem to think women have their brow ridges shaved down to that extent.

I think you might be indulging in some fanciful thinking that future archeologists will not know exactly who those bones belong to.

You are very heavily invested telling women that in the future males and females will have not distinct differences. Why is that?

You can’t tell how much a bone has been shaved down. The bone will just show that it’s been planed and there will be a symmetrical patch of healed bone over the area. It will only be distinguishable from say, a facial injury in terms of placement and symmetry. But there’s is no way to look at what is left and then know how much was shaved off, if you know what I mean.

And the differences between male and female skull are not that pronounced to begin with. Reference the many errors in classification done by archaeologists calling a skeleton male on the basis of it being buried with a sword. They’re not that good at telling male and female apart even with purely natural skulls that have had no surgery done to the facial bones.

I’m not “invested”, merely correcting your idiotic statements about archaeology.

Women more often have facial cosmetic surgery, but this doesn’t often involve bone shaping - it’s soft tissue surgery like facelifts and fat reduction, and nose jobs - which of course are not done on bone.

There’s some really bizarre assertions on this thread!

First of all, this is an article on the consequences for young women who were prescribed medication to interfere with puberty temporarily . These women did go through puberty but at a later point that they would have without the prescription of Lupron.

extract

For years, Sharissa Derricott, 30, had no idea why her body seemed to be failing. At 21, a surgeon replaced her deteriorated jaw joint. She’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

None of it made sense to her until she discovered a community of women online who describe similar symptoms and have one thing in common: All had taken a drug called Lupron.

Thousands of parents chose to inject their daughters with the drug, which was approved to shut down puberty in young girls but also is commonly used off-label to help short kids grow taller.

The drug’s pediatric version comes with few warnings about long-term side effects. It is also used in adults to fight prostate cancer or relieve uterine pain and the Food and Drug Administration has warnings on the drug’s adult labels about a variety of side effects.

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

In interviews and in online forums, women who took the drug as young girls or initiated a daughter’s treatment described harsh side effects that have been well-documented in adults.

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings, and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25-year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26-year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

“It just feels like I’m being punished for basically being experimented on when I was a child,” said Derricott, of Lawton, Okla. “I’d hate for a child to be put on Lupron, get to my age and go through the things I have been through.”

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

@foxgoosefinch

Bone density has not been shown to decrease in any study done on transmen. They have ranged from results of bone density comparable to control cis women or greater bone density than control cis women comparable to cis men. All have shown larger bone size comparable to cis men.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

Except — that isn’t what the study at this link actually says, about the cohort given puberty blockers.

Look at p13.

Let's have a look at that study you have posted. Many of us have seen it and read it. Did you? Did you really?

The baseline Z-scores in the trans boys were better with average areal BMD Z-score 0.17 ± 1.18, BMAD Z-score 0.28 ± 0.90). However, Z-scores in the trans boys also showed an expected drop during GnRHa treatment. Similarly, they did not fully Bmake up their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline (aBMD Z-score − 0.33 ± 1.12 and BMAD Z-score average − 0.033 ± 0.95), despitea small increase in absolute aBMD. One transman at age 22 had a Z-score of < −2.0.^

Just to be sure....

Similarly, they did not fully Bmake up^ their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline (aBMD Z-score − 0.33 ± 1.12 and BMAD Z-score average − 0.033 ± 0.95), despitea small increase in absolute aBMD. One transman at age 22 had a Z-score of < −2.0.

And

This group also reported on bone density and turnover markers in a trial of adolescents/young adults [50] (median age 13.5 range 11.5–18.3) which included some overlapping study participants treated with GnRHa followed by GAHT. In both the young trans men and trans women BMAD Z-scores decreased during treatment with GnRHa and increased after initiation of GAHT but remained below the population average and below baseline levels even after 24 months of GAHT. They also looked at bone turnover markers, which did not completely correlate with DXA findings. GnRHa resulted in lower formation and resorption markers, as measured by P1NP and ICTP, which is consistent with GnRHa use in cis adolescents. Despite initiation of GAHT, these markers continued to decrease although BMAD increased as described above. This may be in line with findings at the end of puberty, but many require further study as to the impact of other hormones or lifestyle on bone health in young trans adults.

Are you sure what you read?

You cite one instance of mis-classification of a skeleton. Here is an interesting article about a new method for determining sex which mentions the efficacy of current techniques:

archaeology.co.uk/articles/sciencenotes/lets-talk-sex-determination.htm

It states that when looking at the morphology of skull and pelvis "its results are usually estimated at between 80% and 95% accuracy depending on the preservation of the bone, among other factors". This is for adult skeletons obviously.

So pretty darn accurate if you have a well preserved skull and pelvis.

@UltraVividLament

What common female cosmetic surgery involves altering bone?

Yes, I’m now very curious

Maybe Will Malone has something to say about it.

twitter.com/will_malone/status/1148001024298377216?s=20

@foxgoosefinch

Women more often have facial cosmetic surgery, but this doesn’t often involve bone shaping - it’s soft tissue surgery like facelifts and fat reduction, and nose jobs - which of course are not done on bone.

There’s some really bizarre assertions on this thread!

Nose jobs often involve the nasal bones. Especially the most common ones that women have:, removal of any hump or bump and/or reduction of the nose size. Look it up.

This is a précis of a documentary broadcast in Sweden.

thread

This is in Swedish only for now. A trans child, Leo was treated for puberty blockers for 4 years. Leo ended up with osteoporosis (significantly below any normal bone density interval), fractures in the back, constant pain and worse mental state.

The journalist also found an additional 12 cases in Stockholm only where children had serious side effects (bone fractures, deep regret from voice changes, injuries, deteriorating mental health and significant weight gains). Leo’s case was not reported and not one of these.

Leo’s parents were not informed of the risk and the doctor that warned the parents about the side effects was reported to the management and silenced (words like incitement was used).

The psychiatric staff initially blamed everything on the hormone team. The head of the department with the hormones claimed in the interview to never have seen the reports from the psychiatric team.

Investigation only seem to have started after the journalist made the program and it wasn’t possible to cover up any more.

And this was Astrid Lindgren’s children’s hospital, one of the hospitals that at least stopped with this treatment. Other hospitals are happily going and claims that the treatment side effects doesn’t worry them.

The program finishes with that nobody know the number of children with serious side effects (some seem to be covered up). Some other Swedish hospitals keep going.

Source: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4410679-Trans-children-in-Sweden-serious-side-effect-cover-ups-by-hospital?pg=1