Julie Bindel in the Critic - why women don't support feminism

[ArabellaScott]

thecritic.co.uk/self-harm-in-sheeps-clothing/

'Women that hate feminism are practicing a form of self-harm, disguised as short-term protection. The job of feminists is to welcome those women into the fold.'

Mnnn.

There are a lot of self declared 'feminists' who attack Posie/Kellie Jay, even though she robustly stands up for women, much more so than the women who say we must accept TWAW, imo. She has been attacked so much that she doesn't even call herself feminist anymore. Should be be persuaded back?

Then there are those feminists who call some women 'domesticated zombies'. Which of these women are in 'the fold' and which are out, who should be welcomed, who should be excluded.
And who gets to decide? Is it Julie?

Thanks for the link. I've read it a couple of times and I'm sure there are some great points but in the light of Ruth Serwotka, Sarah Ditum and 'Zombiegate', I'm really struggling to get past this:

For those that have chosen to marry men and stay at home to look after the children, they may believe that feminists look down on them. This is usually a defence mechanism because I’ve never heard a genuine feminist speak about women in that way.

While I didn't see JB taking part in that exchange, I'm a bit that she didn't know about it. And I think her choice of wording re 'defence mechanism' might also reveal a bit more than she intended.

The feminist fix for anti-feminist women is to ask, repeatedly and unequivocally, why they are working against their own interests. There is only ever one answer, and that is to avoid offending or upsetting men.

I agree partly with this. I remember when feminists were denounced as the hairy armpit, dungaree clad, scary lesbians, so "ladies", if you want to be attractive to men, dont side with these harpies. So fighting for equal pay, decent nurserey care, a right to abortion, and all the other practical things, could so easily get lost in this obfuscation. I think the vast majority of women CAN be feminist in the proper sense but I know some will choose not to be because they see it as a negative label.

Yep, good points. I think it's worth talking about all of this. Not perhaps just in relation to recent disagreements and specific people, but the wider issues to do with feminism and how it operates in life.

I had written a big post about feminism and motherhood recently but lacked the energy to post it .. maybe 2022 will bring Feminists a bit more space to attend to some of the other issues we were probably trying to address before people decided to dismantle the entire concept of female!

Yes I'm conscious that it may be unreasonable to bring up a discussion that JB didn't even take part in (as far as I know). But that line about never having heard a 'genuine feminist' (whatever that means) speak like that just struck me as so disingenuous that it soured the rest of the piece for me.

I think she's missed an opportunity to be a little more reflective, and I would have liked to see her acknowledge that feminism's relationship with motherhood and mothers has been fraught at times. I'd be interested to read that post Arabella.

The feminist fix for anti-feminist women is to ask, repeatedly and unequivocally, why they are working against their own interests. There is only ever one answer, and that is to avoid offending or upsetting men.

I think this is demeaning to the women she's talking about, and not even necessarily true. What I see as the key issue for many women is that they see feminism as a rebel movement, opposed to the society we live in. Feminists certainly agree that society puts women in a vulnerable position, but there are two different responses to that--feminism names the problems and fights against them, but then one could believe that it leaves feminists in an even worse state, because they're women to start with, and because they're giving up the protection that they ought to get by being good female citizens. Men might enjoy the idea of being social dissidents, but I think it's very unsettling to a lot of women.

For those that have chosen to marry men and stay at home to look after the children, they may believe that feminists look down on them. This is usually a defence mechanism because I’ve never heard a genuine feminist speak about women in that way

I think JB might have a selective memory.

www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2004/feb/07/weekend7.weekend

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/05/niall-ferguson-wrong-child-free-care-less?INTCMP=SRCH

I like Julie, I admire her work, but we've all seen the 'Head Girl' mentality.

That's why Kellie Jay pisses them off more than she pisses off James Max. Because she just speaks the truth and doesn't care what feminists think. In my eyes Kellie Jay is a true feminist even though she doesn't accept the term. She fights for women, all women and she gets shit done.

That's why Kellie Jay pisses them off more than she pisses off James Max. Because she just speaks the truth and doesn't care what feminists think. In my eyes Kellie Jay is a true feminist even though she doesn't accept the term. She fights for women, all women and she gets shit done

I agree. KJ is loud, bolshy, isn't an Academic, talks clearly in straight language, is funny, has the ability to charm an audience, fights for all kinds of women without prejudice and adores her husband and children and often puts them first.

They dislike her intensely. There's a nasty side to the Feminist movement - you have to look and behave a certain way and your face is supposed to fit. They can deny this all they want but it's true.

*Pats arrow" - I agree about KellyJ, and I certainly dont think feminism should be about women academics looking down on women who happen not to have had a university education. I remember for example, the tremendous strength and solidarity of some of the miners wives that we met when we were supporting the strike - they were feminists if anyone is. I think there can be a "nasty" side to the feminist movement but worry that this can be attributed to "when women get together they can be so bitchy". Ive experienced that too. No movement is perfect I guess. Some of the male anarchists Ive encountered, have been a right pain in the arse!

Also, who cleans the offices of all those professional women and how much are they getting paid!

@prudencepuffin

Also, who cleans the offices of all those professional women and how much are they getting paid!

What an irrelevant point.

It certainly isnt irrelevant - many of the women who may have cause to join the feminist movement but at the moment dont (and as has been pointed out, are sometimes looked down on by professional women like Ruth Serwotka), are cleaning the offices of those very same women, who perhaps should understand that any common cause of feminism should include them.

It is completely irrelevant.

Campaign for fair wages for all , fine, but making an issue out of cleaning offices that , shock horror, women work in is ridiculous.

Maybe they don't support it because of the wankers who say things like "women who don't support feminism are just doing it to please men."

Because you either have to be utterly lacking in self-knowledge or a patronizing wanker to say that to a whole group of women.

@KimikosNightmare

It is completely irrelevant.

Campaign for fair wages for all , fine, but making an issue out of cleaning offices that , shock horror, women work in is ridiculous.

Not irrelevant at all. It's an important question what it means to talk about women's liberation when in a lot of cases it really turns out to be a way for professional class women to harness the labour of working class women for the financial benefit of the former.

In my eyes Kellie Jay is a true feminist even though she doesn't accept the term. She fights for women, all women and she gets shit done

Very true. I guess feminism is inevitably going to include women who disagree fundamentally on various issues. What I've liked and valued most about the rise of 'gender critical ' feminism has been meeting and talking with women I have little to nothing in common with, other than sex.

So it is possible to get past differences of belief, opinion and position. I think so long as we can maintain respectful approach towards each other. Women are an incredibly powerful force - imagine what we could get done if we can learn better how to disagree productively.

What I think this article makes clear is that for JB, feminism isn't women talking together about politics, economics, family, and how those things function (or not) in society for the good of women. Or even about taking concrete action to help women.

It's about accepting a certain left wing marxist analysis of society that interprets male and female roles as a class relation, where women who side with men over other women are victims of false consciousness.

What's interesting is that it doesn't seem to occur to her that some women might take that understanding at face value and reject feminism because they reject that way of thinking about society and class overall, or think it's not relevant to male/female issues, or even only partly relevant. That is, they don't disagree because of false consciousness but on points of intellectual principle.

And then I wonder, would she recognize that men might disagree on points of reason, or is it only women?

Well I'll carry on doing my bit for women and girls.

I really Can't be doing with squabbling about who is a feminist.

I struggle with the box categorisation of feminism. For me feminism has always just been about not being discriminated against because you are female. I don't want women only shortlists or to be prioritised because I am a woman, I just don't want to have fewer promotion prospects because i am a woman and only women need time off to bear children and sexist men expect us to do the childcare when they are ill and I don't love housework and buying everyone's cards and presents and remembering all the dates. I just want men to pull their weight domestically so I can do as well in my career as a man. Not better, just as well.

I like Julie very much but I can’t take her seriously on this one. I’ve seen her calling Kellie -Jay stupid and complaining that KJ said that raising children is important to her. I just don’t believe her when she says real feminists don’t sneer at mothers. They do, we’ve seen it.

I think some women who do feminism professionally - or aspire to it - recoiled from KJ when she went to the US and challenged Charlotte Clymer because they want to do a kind of respectability politics where they explain themselves reasonably in newspaper articles and books. Which is fine, it’s a totally valid way to do it, but they missed out on a great campaigner and activist when they sidelined KJ.

I don't want women only shortlists

and yet until we had women only shortlists, only 10% of UK MPs were women. they have brought us up to the giddy heights of 30%

I agree that they have been useful and have helped change sexist traditions in politics. I just don't like the principle.

@prudencepuffin

Also, who cleans the offices of all those professional women and how much are they getting paid!

Same people who clean the offices for professional men? I'd think paid the same?

I've read it a couple of times and I'm sure there are some great points but in the light of Ruth Serwotka, Sarah Ditum and 'Zombiegate',

I've somehow missed all of these and if they wouldn't add to my life right now, I'm not sure that I need to know.

I can't think whether it's Lucy Hunter Blackburn or Kathleen Stock (maybe someone else altogether) who has made the point that professional feminists (the likes of Fawcett Society) regularly dunk on grassroots feminists who achieve far more.

Not irrelevant at all. It's an important question what it means to talk about women's liberation when in a lot of cases it really turns out to be a way for professional class women to harness the labour of working class women for the financial benefit of the former

What complete nonsense.

Offices, factories, hospitals are cleaned for the benefit of the people working in them. It's a job - same as any other job. It has damn all to do "with harnessing the labour of working class women"

Perhaps you think female surgeons, judges, solicitors, teachers etc should clean their own offices? Are their male counterparts allowed to have their workplaces cleaned by people who are paid to clean them?

No doubt the usual obligatory and tedious lecture will be trotted out about evil professional women employing domestic cleaners.

Cleaners provide a service. Same as many others.