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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julie Bindel in the Critic - why women don't support feminism

140 replies

ArabellaScott · 31/12/2021 12:56

thecritic.co.uk/self-harm-in-sheeps-clothing/

'Women that hate feminism are practicing a form of self-harm, disguised as short-term protection. The job of feminists is to welcome those women into the fold.'

OP posts:
ScreamingMeMe · 01/01/2022 10:48

@Cuck00soup

Well I'll carry on doing my bit for women and girls.

I really Can't be doing with squabbling about who is a feminist.

Same.
Wreath21 · 01/01/2022 12:46

Another issue with the 'academic white women' type of feminism is how many of its proponents not only fail to understand but get very scoldy about women who are also subject to race/class discrimination being inclined towards solidarity with men in the same race/class even if those men are not particularly supportive of women's rights.
You get the strand of feminism that is very pro- calling the police/authorities, which doesn't go down too well among people who know that the police are there to control them rather than protect them.

KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 13:01

@C8H10N4O2

The rates of pay being offered is another issue but that is wholly irrelevant to the sex of the office workers

The sex of a workforce is directly related to the pay for the job. This has been repeatedly proven in the many cases of employers being sued for paying the "male" jobs more than the equivalent "female" jobs.

If one subset of women progress and elevate and the gap widens between the successful group and the underclass of women supporting that change then that is not a success or improvement for most women.

The rates offered to office cleaners will be exactly the same regardless of the sex of the office workers.

You now have women who can choose a variety of careers, but also many women who would like to choose family life but are less able to. Who decides if that is a win for women, or a loss? You? Why should it be you?

Why should it be you? You also seem to be labouring under some sort of delusion that there was a golden age of women not working outside the home.

Your points are extremely misogynistic.

KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 13:05

If one subset of women progress and elevate and the gap widens between the successful group and the underclass of women supporting that change then that is not a success or improvement for most women

Just amazing really. Women don't bother getting an education or a career - it's so unfeminist to do so.

Wreath21 · 01/01/2022 13:29

Quite. I haven't noticed anybody saying that men getting professional careers is unfair on the men who do low-paid service sector jobs (as PP have said, a lot of the people who clean business premises etc are men).

The fact that some people run businesses exploitatively and make huge profits by underpaying their staff is a seperate issue.

Abhannmor · 01/01/2022 14:31

@Wreath21

Quite. I haven't noticed anybody saying that men getting professional careers is unfair on the men who do low-paid service sector jobs (as PP have said, a lot of the people who clean business premises etc are men).

The fact that some people run businesses exploitatively and make huge profits by underpaying their staff is a seperate issue.

People keep saying this or that is 'a separate issue'. Maybe. But it's why Clinton couldn't sell the benefits of feminism to working class women in eg Michigan.
prudencepuffin · 01/01/2022 15:48

Women don't bother getting an education or a career

So you think its that women dont "bother"?
There may be many reasons why women miss out on education or getting into a professional career. Feminism should still be for them shouldnt it?

SantaClawsServiette · 01/01/2022 16:09

@Wreath21

Quite. I haven't noticed anybody saying that men getting professional careers is unfair on the men who do low-paid service sector jobs (as PP have said, a lot of the people who clean business premises etc are men).

The fact that some people run businesses exploitatively and make huge profits by underpaying their staff is a seperate issue.

If you had a movement, supposedly to help all poor men do better, but when you looked at it's effects it actually made the ones with advantages better off, whereas the ones with more disadvantages were worse off, would you say that it was a success for poor men as a whole?

Alternatly, if a women who was previously a middle class housewife is now free to become a doctor, that is great for her. Even for her as a woman. It also means her middle class family is now in position of two professional incomes, Their financial position is now much improved for the whole family.

But she does this by hiring another woman to do the same work she was doing before. There are a few notable things about this. One is that whhereas she, as a wife, was a partner in the economic unit of the household in return for her work, the new employee is not. So it really is a kind of outsourcing a job to less expensive labour from the economic perspective of the family unit. Contracting out.

Secondly, if the woman being hired was previously in her own home looking after her own kids, she's now needed to enter the workforce to make ends meet, not in a job that is very remunerative and fulfilling, like the woman who has become a doctor. And even if she was working before, there is now still a much later gap between her family and the doctor's family, which has consequences in terms of relative power and autonomy for her family in the economic landscape.

So the questions are: 1) Which woman here has feminism been a win for? And 2) Given that when we look at class, it's advantaged the MC family, and disadvantaged the WC family, can we say that this has been a movement about class advantage?

If you put those two questions together what it points to are the kinds of blindspots a lot of women complain about in feminism, particularly around mothers and how we value domestic labour.

SantaClawsServiette · 01/01/2022 16:14

@NonnyMouse1337

I've read the article twice - it is very poorly written and confuses and conflates several different topics / issues.

Julie Bindel starts off taking aim at those women who say they are feminists but actually support a lot of things that are inherently anti-feminist like pornography, prostitution / sex work, transgenderism etc. Ok, fair enough.

But hang on, isn't that the same angle as her previous article?
The seventh article, on misogynists and their handmaidens, can be read here.
I haven't read that one yet, but I imagine there's a big overlap in the type of (usually young) women who use the 'feminist' label as a sort of 'identity' while supporting various activities that are supposedly 'empowering' but often just continue to enable men to exploit women and their bodies in various ways....

We are the only oppressed group on the planet who are expected to love, protect and rigorously defend our oppressors.
It doesn't occur to her that not everyone views life and humanity solely through the simplistic oppressor/oppressed dichotomy. This is a very specific mindset that is popular in left-wing circles on issues around sex, race, gender identity, economic class etc but isn't shared outside of it. Most people outside of these fashionable circles realise that other human beings are also complex individuals. As a brown woman, I don't hate or even dislike white people or men. I don't see why I should. I'm even capable of loving, protecting and defending some of them - horrifying I know. Sure, I can criticise or strongly condemn certain racial or sexist issues, whether in a historical or contemporary context, but that's not the same as viewing white people or men as an oppressor class. I think people who are heavily invested in the oppressor/oppressed mindset cannot comprehend that others simply don't buy into that concept. 'Liberation' is not something that's needed - it's a fuzzy word like 'world peace' that sounds impressive but doesn't actually mean anything tangible or realistic to many people.
You can support the idea of not wanting to be discriminated or abused or exploited on the basis of your skin colour or sex without framing it through it oppressor/oppressed dichotomy.

Ok nevermind, let's just roll with it for now....
But wait, she's suddenly talking about heterosexual women. I guess if you are immersed in this oppressor/oppressed mindset then heterosexuality becomes this awful, terrible thing for women. Like it's something that's imposed on them. (The more extreme believers in this ideology even think heterosexuality is a social construct.)
To people who live outside of that bubble, it's just a normal sexual orientation like homosexuality or bisexuality. And it's a dominant sexual orientation because of evolution (that scary concept). Humans, like many other lifeforms on this planet, are divided into two sexes and the only way our species continues is because most of us are wired to favour forming bonds and raising families with the opposite sex. You can oppose problematic behaviours within heterosexual relationships without viewing heterosexuality as a negative.

A lot of women in heterosexual relationships aren't catastrophising (is that a word?!) about porn or rape by their partners or sons. They simply genuinely care and love their husbands and families, and worry about their well-being because it's a very human thing to do.

And so we come to the next bit -
For those that have chosen to marry men and stay at home to look after the children, they may believe that feminists look down on them. This is usually a defence mechanism because I’ve never heard a genuine feminist speak about women in that way.
Lolz. Where to begin. For a start, who decides whether a woman is a 'genuine feminist'? Julie Bindel?
Assuming JB categorises her own good self as a 'genuine feminist' - within her own article she writes in a condescending manner that any woman who doesn't subscribe to the oppressor/oppressed ideological framework is actually just colluding in her own oppression.
(Very reminiscent of the critical race theory ideological framework - even questioning a claim of racism or questioning / rejecting the concept of systemic racism makes you a racist or a bootlicker.)

According to JB, the only real reason why a woman might critique aspects of feminism or question / reject certain tenets is to avoid offending and upsetting men. You see, only men have the superior brains to think big, intellectual thoughts and make reasoned arguments. Women are simple-minded creatures motivated by gazing into the eyes of men over breakfast and unable to do anything that might upset them.
But feminists must magnanimously welcome these self-harming simpletons into the fold. (Really selling it to us here, JB!)
The whole tone is very much “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” A condescending arrogance that is dressed up as meek forgiveness. Is it any wonder that many women give feminism a hard pass?

Anyway we started off with women who call themselves feminists but are actually anti-feminists, to heterosexual women, to women who stay at home to look after their husbands and children, to women who explicitly reject feminism citing various reasons .... I'm not sure of the exact point JB is trying to make by lumping all these different groups and angles into one article, but she hasn't managed to convince me to read any of the other ones in the series.

It's a familiar tactic in the identity politics arena - set up an ideological framework, declare that everyone actually operates within this framework and then accuse anyone who doesn't subscribe to your ideas or questions aspects of it as colluding with oppressors, traitors, working against their own interests, or some sort of -ist or -phobic. Hardly groundbreaking or innovative, and not particularly effective in convincing / persuading people to your side.

Yes, this is it.

This is the problem I have with JB the feminist. She is doing the exact same kinds of identity politics in terms of feminism that are so toxic in the areas of race or gender. And they are toxic in feminism as well. Ultimately while she does some decent awareness stuff around prostitution, id pol is not going to win people to feminism any more than it's won the people to gender ideology or antiracism. Quite the opposite.

ArabellaScott · 01/01/2022 16:47

Thanks for thoughtful and interesting responses, all.

The vast majority of people/women probably know very little about feminism, its politics, schisms, disagreements, intersections and history (I count myself among those with scant knowledge).

I wonder how much dissent and disagreement is just standard when people are 1. challenging norms, which requires disruptive behaviour and outlook and 2. creating a new movement from basically scratch.

Feminism has made enormous strides in many spheres over the past 100 years. I guess it needs to keep changing and adapting as the fronts shift and cultures change. Still too much remains unmoved wrt domestic violence, porn, prostitution etc (although before I stumbled into FWR I had very different thoughts on these issues). And the political backdrop changes all the time, too.

For me, feminism has always been a changeable path and I see no reason it'll stop changing as my understanding and society's shifting standards continue. I suppose it's just so long as it's moving towards a world where women and girls are (as a whole) more liberated, protected and valued, it's okay.

OP posts:
Berkspolix · 01/01/2022 17:03

Excellent post regarding middle & working class mothers @SantaClawsServiette, you make an incredibly important point.

Mollyollydolly · 01/01/2022 17:31

I just wish sometimes we could concentrate more on making things better for all women. There was a beautifully written essay I saw on twitter today from a young carer. It's here if anyone wants to read.

impolitelesbian.substack.com/p/young-carer

Now I was a carer for my mum for many years and worked full time because of if I hadn't I would have fallen into a poverty trap. It nearly broke me, the scars of it will be with me forever. Caring tends to fall on women and girls - we all know why. It's a feminist issue. These are the people I want feminism to help, invisible women, forgotten about. I think that's why I find JB's essay so frustrating and infuriating, I don't see what change it will achieve in any material sense.

toomanytrees · 01/01/2022 17:38

@SantaClawsServiette
You have made a very interesting point. There are upsides and downsides to everything. For example women moving into the workforce helped put pressure on housing prices. This meant that mothers who would have preferred to stay home, no longer could. What is good for professional women like JB is not necessarily good for those who are not.

PlanktonsComputerWife · 01/01/2022 17:48

This shark has been jumped.

FlyingOink · 01/01/2022 17:56

SantaClawsServiette
I agree with you but I have made this point in the past with specific sums.
If middle class woman A is able to pursue a career, let's say she earns £60,000 and her husband also £60,000.
Their annual income is £120,000, so for a mortgage at five times joint income they can buy a house if they are also able to save a deposit.

Working class woman B earns £20,000 and her husband £20,000. Their joint income is £40,000, five times that is £200,000 which where I live still gets you a flat.

However. The average rent is £1200 for the same flat, and B and her husband take home £1400 each. The rent used to be lower but property prices increased because instead of three times a single salary, banks now loan five times a joint salary.

B and her husband can theoretically buy a flat if they can save a whole year's salary for one of them. If the rent is £1200 and the income is £1400 for one of them, that isn't going to happen quickly. It also assumes they have zero debt, that housing prices won't increase too quickly and that their financial status will remain stable.

So what has happened is that in the past B might not have had to work, because her husband earned enough to pay rent and bills and living expenses. He doesn't now because housing costs have soared due to the availability of credit at low rates. So now she has to work and isn't any better off.

A is much better off and has a much better personal position. She has some degree of financial stability, financial parity with her husband and a career.

B might not be earning £20000, she might have children of her own and be unable to work full time. So no amount of saving is going to get them on the housing ladder. Meanwhile the price of housing continues to increase.

None of this is A's fault as an individual, of course.

namitynamechange · 01/01/2022 17:56

I do see @SantaClawsServiette ' s point. However - the existence of female doctors is actually a benefit to other women (of any class or age) who want to see a female doctor. For some women it could be the difference between going to the GP or not going. In the case of surgeons it can actually be the difference between life and death (at least based on recent US research.
I also have to admit... I have worked as a cleaner before and enjoyed it - even though I hate cleaning when its my own house. I earned good money compared to other jobs I could have worked at the time. So the idea that cleaning is always a lesser job imposed on working class women somehow isn't always the case. It should absolutely be appreciated and paid for fairly - but it isn't always inherently an explotative/degrading job.

namitynamechange · 01/01/2022 18:04

I will add that there are also lots of women who choose jobs like cleaning because:

  • It meets with their family commitments/other demands on their time
  • It is better paid than other jobs they could get in line with their qualifications/age/local market
  • It is a genuine way to improve their economic position
  • It allows them to mantain financial independance
  • They like it

I agree a conversation should be had about exploitation, about the undervaluing of "women's work" and about modern expectations that both parents work. But I wouldn't assume that cleaning is any worse inherently than being a gardener, car mechanic or plumber or any other "domestic" jobs that are frequently outsourced.

Wreath21 · 01/01/2022 18:10

The idea that women entering professional work caused housing costs to rise to the point that most families now need two incomes is sort of plausible, but doesn't really stand up. A bigger reason for high housing costs is profiteering around property and the increasing acceptability of buying houses, etc to make a profit rather than have somewhere to live (and, of course, wage stagnation).
Working class women have always worked, even in the days when men were routinely paid more (the 'family' wage, which was very nice indeed for men who didn't have or didn't want children).
People's thinking about 'work' is very messed up, as well, whether that's the right-wing obsession with 'idleness' among the poor and how they must be made to occupy themselves and, most of all, learn obedience by being employed, or those like the silly kid I had an exchange of views with elsewhere on social media - 'If I had universal basic income I would spend my time volunteering and helping other people'... I asked what made this different from work?
Thing is, there are a lot of necessary tasks that can't be automated away. We might be able to synthesise food and have it produced by robots, but someone still has to get it onto plates. The very young, the old and the sick still need to be looked after. There's still cleaning, production and maintenance work to be done in private homes as well as public and business premises.
What needs to be looked at is how those tasks get allocated. Some people seem to think that, for instance, health care workers (with specific skills and qualifications) should also clean their workplaces - this doesn't seem to be the best use of their working time.

Wreath21 · 01/01/2022 18:12

@namitynamechange

I will add that there are also lots of women who choose jobs like cleaning because:
  • It meets with their family commitments/other demands on their time
  • It is better paid than other jobs they could get in line with their qualifications/age/local market
  • It is a genuine way to improve their economic position
  • It allows them to mantain financial independance
  • They like it

I agree a conversation should be had about exploitation, about the undervaluing of "women's work" and about modern expectations that both parents work. But I wouldn't assume that cleaning is any worse inherently than being a gardener, car mechanic or plumber or any other "domestic" jobs that are frequently outsourced.

This is also true of sex work.
Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/01/2022 18:16

Bollocks!! “Sex work” is inherently unsafe & wouldn’t pass the most basic health & safety laws in the UK

Wreath21 · 01/01/2022 18:33

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Bollocks!! “Sex work” is inherently unsafe & wouldn’t pass the most basic health & safety laws in the UK
It really isn't more inherently unsafe than many other jobs - and most of what makes it unsafe is the stigma and the puritanical, misogynistic laws around it.

Though those who are opposed to sex work should probably start thinking about the fact that the best way to enable people who would rather stop doing sex work to stop doing it is to introduce universal basic income. People who sell sex and hate doing so, only continue to do so because they need money and resources.

Same as the way to stop the dangerous small-boat channel crossings by refugees and migrants would be to provide safe, legal routes from one country to another.

ArabellaScott · 01/01/2022 18:54

@Mollyollydolly

I just wish sometimes we could concentrate more on making things better for all women. There was a beautifully written essay I saw on twitter today from a young carer. It's here if anyone wants to read.

impolitelesbian.substack.com/p/young-carer

Now I was a carer for my mum for many years and worked full time because of if I hadn't I would have fallen into a poverty trap. It nearly broke me, the scars of it will be with me forever. Caring tends to fall on women and girls - we all know why. It's a feminist issue. These are the people I want feminism to help, invisible women, forgotten about. I think that's why I find JB's essay so frustrating and infuriating, I don't see what change it will achieve in any material sense.

That's a heartrending read.

'Properly fund and de-stigmatise nursing care.' - absolutely. I agree that young carers should be paid, if they are to be caring for people at all.

It seems in some ways feminism only went in one direction, aiming for women to emulate male versions of success. But failed to look in other directions, consider the huge bulk of women's work/effort/time, which is probably caring, housekeeping, having and raising children. The value and standing of this work.

This work has to be done, of course. And some of it, like gestation and birth, can only be done by women. We need it to be valued properly. Paid. (And yes, women should be paid to raise children. It's hard and vital work. Societies don't function - or don't last - without the next generation, just ask the Shakers. Women are paid to raise other people's children, but not their own. That's always struck me as odd.)

Anyway. Yes, we need feminism that is practical, that offers all women benefits, real concrete benefits, not just theoretical ones or ego-based ones.

OP posts:
namitynamechange · 01/01/2022 19:26

I would argue that sex work IS inherently degrading and exploitative actually for lots and lots of reasons. Which is not to say that ALL women engaged in sex word consider themselves to be degraded/exploitative (before you set up that straw man)
But anyway, the fact you consider sex work and cleaning to be the same says more about you than anything else...

Although it does raise an important point about women working outside the home. In the 18th Century when women were barred from almost all well paid employment the proportion working in the sex industry was huge. Almost always this was about survival not choice. There's a lot more to it than that. But the times before first wave feminism were not halcyon days of harmony between the sexes and safe domesticity.

namitynamechange · 01/01/2022 19:28

But also most of what makes it unsafe is the stigma and the puritanical, misogynistic laws around it.
NOPE most of what makes it unsafe is the rapey, murederey, abusive men that benefit from it (either as pimps or punters)

prudencepuffin · 01/01/2022 19:33

Anyway. Yes, we need feminism that is practical, that offers all women benefits, real concrete benefits, not just theoretical ones or ego-based ones.
Yes this, and also good points from SantaClaws
*
So the questions are: 1) Which woman here has feminism been a win for? And 2) Given that when we look at class, it's advantaged the MC family, and disadvantaged the WC family, can we say that this has been a movement about class advantage?*

Feminism is about (and for) all of us.

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