Julie Bindel in the Critic - why women don't support feminism

[ArabellaScott]

thecritic.co.uk/self-harm-in-sheeps-clothing/

'Women that hate feminism are practicing a form of self-harm, disguised as short-term protection. The job of feminists is to welcome those women into the fold.'

In the end this JB piece is. Bottom line. Goady, misogynist, void of feminist analysis. The end welcome them! Was just deliberate insult to injury!

But then from her this stuff is sadly not uncommon at all.

@CheeseMmmm sorry, I should have been clearer. My last post was a reference to wreath's comments that "the same argument could be made about sex work". I think sex work/surrogacy/selling organs etc all exist in their own category - even though lots of other work can be physically demanding, boring, undervalued etc. I agree that the message given in the media is completely at odds with the reality.

SantaClawsServiette, there's a fundamental flaw in your argument that by helping middle-class women to achieve better opportunities (eg train as a doctor), feminism has disadvantaged working-class women.

You say the middle-class woman does this by hiring another woman to do the same work she was doing before eg by hiring a cleaner. if the woman being hired was previously in her own home looking after her own kids, she's now needed to enter the workforce to make ends meet.

But the MC woman hasn't made the WC woman go out to work. The WC woman's circumstances aren't affected by the MC woman's change of occupation, or by better training opportunities for women generally.

Blame capitalism, patriarchy, our messed-up economy or the insane cost of housing. But don't blame feminism. Your argument doesn't stand up.

Wreath21, working as a cleaner is nothing like prostitution. The only people I've ever heard expressing that view are middle-class liberals who have never come within a mile of having to do either themselves.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

SantaClawsServiette, there's a fundamental flaw in your argument that by helping middle-class women to achieve better opportunities (eg train as a doctor), feminism has disadvantaged working-class women.

You say the middle-class woman does this by hiring another woman to do the same work she was doing before eg by hiring a cleaner. if the woman being hired was previously in her own home looking after her own kids, she's now needed to enter the workforce to make ends meet.

But the MC woman hasn't made the WC woman go out to work. The WC woman's circumstances aren't affected by the MC woman's change of occupation, or by better training opportunities for women generally.

Blame capitalism, patriarchy, our messed-up economy or the insane cost of housing. But don't blame feminism. Your argument doesn't stand up.

Where do you think all the women working for crap wages in daycares come from? Often working for long house since they need to be able to cover the typical working hours of the parents of the kids?

The reality is that someone always has to take care of children. It's still women doing it, just the women being paid by those who can afford it because they are making enough money to do so.

I have a big soft spot for Julie Bindle. I think she really is brave (in the old sense of the word, not current usage on SM). I don’t hate feminists or feminism. I just don’t enjoy wearing a label that makes some people feel entitled to tell what I should/have to think because of said label. I don’t enjoy the assumptions about what I think and how self harming I am by not calling myself a feminist. But you can’t have everything you want in life.

And I know I do better, think better, when I keep myself outside of tribes, clans, groups, labels etc., wandering around making my own mind up on issues based on the arguments I hear without the worry that I’m leaning in a certain direction cos my sub conscious is getting worried about me riling up other clan members if I don’t pick the “right” answer.

I get to support who I want about what I want when I think they are right and could do with the support. Not cos they are on my “team” and there may be sanctions for not being a good < insert label > properly if my support does not arrive in a timely and appropriately enthusiastic manner.

Self harm would be to go back to what I did in my younger years and want to have the label, be part of “something”, and then spend so much time worried I was going to put my foot in mouth and get piled on for feministing wrong that I got less vocal, rather the more I had intended.

Which how I think an awful lot of younger feminists end up yelling TERF despite some constantly suppressed nagging doubts and questions, just to avoid getting thrown to the dogs by their own team. Peer pressure is inevitable when you make yourself part of a group, and groups can be merciless to their own who won’t get in line and make the right noises on demand.

BTDT had T-shirt, not got the figure nor the mindset to revisit that fashion.

The reality is that someone always has to take care of children. It's still women doing it, just the women being paid by those who can afford it because they are making enough money to do so

And what is your suggestion to deal with low pay? You haven't presented anything coherent other than a lot of finger pointing and blaming.

This aspect of the thread started from the utterly ridiculous point that low wages for office cleaners is due to the fact that some highly paid workers in offices are women.

This then led on to the even more incoherent argument that high earning women are preventing other women from being stay at home mothers.

I didn't get a response as to whether the proponents of this ludicrous line of thought expected female judges, barristers, doctors etc, etc to clean their offices whilst their male counterparts of course could continue to have them cleaned.

Nor did I get any coherent response to when exactly this golden age was when working class women didn't work outside the home. Thinking back on it , coming from a farming background the farm wives helped on the farm, many of the mothers from working class homes worked (shops, the local hospital, café) Some of them were cleaners for the middle class SAHMs.

You haven't presented any coherent argument about why a parent (note the deliberate use of parent, not women) should not pay for childcare.

Your arguments would be applauded by Phyllis Schlafly. All you are saying is women should not have a career; women should not aim to be high earners; women should be at home performing their proper domestic duties.

There's a strong push for the popular notion in the press and underlying social belief that when it comes to most things that are not good, women are the root cause.

It's so everyday and devoid of thought.

Sex offences against women and girls?
They should have been more careful.

Abusive bloke?
You should have picked a better partner.

Poverty, children impacted?
Your choice to have children, your problem to sort out.

Unfair pay?
You should have negotiated better, like a man.

Low pay job?
Fault of women who earn more.

Not anything to do with capitalism and misogny.

Why is cleaning so often cited as THE shit job?
Pretty much everyone has to do cleaning.
Tends to fall mainly to women around the world.
(I've seen men on threads about prostitution, saying better than cleaning a few times. Just thought to wonder WHY men see cleaning as appalling job.
Because it's 'women's work'?
There's something as well about, in het relationships it's well known that cooking cleaning sex are what lots of men (often deep down) want from female partner.
Is that why it's brought up in prostitution? Both part of women's natural duties to man?

It's just so... Tired, boring etc. As old as the hills.

I mean literally this misogny is littered everywhere-

Who is to blame for garden Eden kicked out?
The woman.
(Nothing to do with the devil tempting, or Adam eating it. Obviously!).

Who fucked Samson over?
Delilah.

Harlot
Interesting googling! Bible:

' And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus'

Oh and-

I've seen loads of male cleaners in offices and hosps. Men are majority in some cleaning roles eg window cleaning, car valeting for public or in garages.
DH job sometimes has to clean up graffiti and said cleaning bus stations including toilets includes male cleaners.
Street cleaners usually men.
I've seen men in tube station mopping up vomit.
I know loads of male care assistants/ carers not sure right term. Supporting etc people with various issues that mean need specialist care.
The people who come to unblock drains etc tend to be male.

Etc etc etc...

The interesting thing about cleaning always being cited as essentially female when paid job on threads like these.

Is that it's to do with massive stereotypical assumptions sprinkled with a good dose of misogny.

It seems to invariably mean housework.
And it totally ignores other cleaning jobs, and also that men do cleaning jobs loads

The ACTUAL problem I'd say is that housework is the job of the woman who lives there, and it's WRONG for a woman to dodge her duty.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Wreath21, working as a cleaner is nothing like prostitution. The only people I've ever heard expressing that view are middle-class liberals who have never come within a mile of having to do either themselves.

That may have something to do with the fact that you don't know as many sex workers and sex work activists as I do.

Ooh big assumption! Out of interest, given this is anon site. What makes you sure that that poster doesn't know many of any women (and men?) who are paid for sex, and/or hasn't done it herself?

I mean I have no idea either way.

But what makes you so sure?

'sex work activists'-

Do you mean groups working directly with the women and girls at the sharp end,

Or the women, and LOADS of men, who march and post all over SM etc,

Who use phrases and arguments eg

Sex work is work
No different to any other job
In Capitalist etc society, all work is exploitation
Those who think should be illegal to pay another person for sexual contact, do so because they hate the women (men) who are paid, they fear the temptation to their husbands, they are prudes, likely 'vanilla' and against sex in general and uptight... Etc.

Having reread your earlier post I think I can safely say that's your general opinion.

I'm assuming you work on the ground as well? I mean directly with women girls who need help? Actually probably wrong to assume that.

Out of interest do the sex workers you know, say that their job is essentially the same as cleaning?

If it is I've been doing both sex and cleaning wrong for decades!

@CheeseMmmm

Ooh big assumption! Out of interest, given this is anon site. What makes you sure that that poster doesn't know many of any women (and men?) who are paid for sex, and/or hasn't done it herself?

I mean I have no idea either way.

But what makes you so sure?

Because she said the only people she knows who consider sex work to be work are middle class liberals.

@CheeseMmmm

Out of interest do the sex workers you know, say that their job is essentially the same as cleaning?

If it is I've been doing both sex and cleaning wrong for decades!

My original comment was referring to this quote by a PP - as to why some people take up cleaning other people's houses... ^- It meets with their family commitments/other demands on their time

• It is better paid than other jobs they could get in line with their qualifications/age/local market
• It is a genuine way to improve their economic position
• It allows them to mantain financial independance
• They like it^

All these reasons can apply to sex work as well. TBH when it comes to cleaning, doing it on a self-employed casual basis is probably the only way to earn more money than you would by being officially employed (agency cleaners, particularly those who clean business premises, tend to be very poorly paid).

So your 'gotcha' is that she might know, or have experience of being, the wrong sort of prostitute?

Anyone who makes money being paid for sex. Who doesn't follow the mantra sex work is work (same as any other job eg cleaning).

Then they don't 'count' as far as you're concerned, as having any relevance in these conversations?

That's genuinely really really appalling.

And I've heard some shit in my time.

Unless the quote you pasted of her posts has missed out info..?

Wreath you really need to explain your comment just now.

I'm surprised you missed the main obvious difference between cleaning, and men paying a woman for various sex acts including (variously) fucking their cock into someone's mouth vagina arsehole.

I mean I see that as a pretty key difference.

Maybe the dodgy men only go to the wrong sort of prostitutes?

And the... reduce the stigma it's same as cleaning... sex workers, who only do the part of that term that means men paying for sex.

Get good looking, kind, trustworthy, interesting, often only want a chat, generous, respectful men. That they may enjoy having sex with.

Well easy then.

Just tell all those (men women boys girls) who are paid for sexual contact. All over the world. To say sex work is work 10 times a day.

And all prostitutes (and prostituted) people everywhere will be at zero risk from punters!

Fucking hell you're a genius!!

*extract from twitter thread

Since the recent comparison has centred on cashiers who get arthritis, it's helpful to know that women in the sex trade are at significant risk of chronic joint, back, jaw and wrist pain. The cause of which we don't want to talk about: Sex buyers heavy bodies & aggressive motions

Sex buyers know about this physical damage, btw and talk about it - or rather "complain". "She couldn't do xy cause she's got x pain, so annoying." Trigger warning: Rape and dehumanization. t.co/qiompPc4am

Disproportionate risk of bruises contusions, wounds, head & facial injuries, pulled muscles, fractures, internal injuries, miscarriages. According to the German family ministry 1 in 5 prostituted women sustains intermediate to heavy physical injury in connection with prostitution

Not so well known may be the reality of oral problems for women in the sex trade: Negative effects on teeth, mouth and jawbone. Some women self-anaesthetize, e.g. using dental numbing sprays to endure painful oral sex. Delayed care for oral health issues can lead to abscesses.

The sex trade is the only "work environment" that can give you vaginal inuries, harm your vaginal ph level and fluid, increasing the risk for inflammation and infection, esp chronic bladder infections. As well as vaginal tears, fissures and an increased risk for cervical cancer.

What is done to women in #prostitution increases their risk for kidney and bladder problems, as well as urine and stool incontinence. Add to that pelvic floor weakness, heavy period pain, irregular menstruation and infertility. The entire abdominal area is at significant risk.

The sex trade is the only industry where you're at risk of injury to your anus and rectum. Add gastrointestinal issues, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, eating disorders, inflamed digestive tracks and destroyed bowel environments. Caused by violent anal sex and frequent enemas.

The gastrointestinal issues and other factors women in the sex trade often suffer affect the effectiveness of contraception. So not only can they suffer side-effects of hormonal contraceptives, including thrombosis and pulmonary embolism, the "job" can cause unwanted pregnancies.

twitter.com/EllyArrow/status/1431531246283329544?t=_jEMVTL2RfjSiOsiOEOkvQ&s=19

Sex-buyers are not paying for some gentle lovemaking, or to wait until the woman is miraculously fully aroused by the presence of a sex-buyer.

Sex women don't want to have hurts women.

I find posters who take same line as wreath really interesting.

Wreath

-Please expand on your comment saying anyone paid for sex who does NOT agree that it's a job like any other, no different to cleaning etc. Is by your definition not a prostitute.
What your definition of prostitute (sex workers who provide a service that includes sex acts up to and including oral, vaginal, anal penetrative sex with a man, if you prefer)?

• Assuming you're a woman who has a reasonable amount of experience of sex with men.

I just don't understand why you essentially see a man fucking your arse or vagina, having you give oral sex. When we all know what men can be like when sex is consensual... And we all know there's a huge amount of men out there with iffy, dodgy, creepy, aggressive, criminal behaviours related to sex and pretty much always directed at women and girls.

How it's even possible to say being paid by men for sex, sex acts etc is no different to any other work.

I can't see how it's possible to think that when you know only too well what men can be like. To women, and girls from as soon as their boobs are making even tiny bumps in their school jumpers.

Would you tell a men that being paid by another man to fuck you anally is worth just like any other work? No different to washing a car, working on till in shop, or indeed. Cleaning.

Be honest. Would you tell a heterosexual man that being paid by men to be anally penetrated, (sorry but let's be honest) to be fucked hard, until the buyer ejaculates as deep as he can.

Is a good choice of work if he's looking for flexible hours etc?

If you say yes. You would definitely tell men that. Men you don't know on chat sites, men you know irl etc. And really push your point that it's no different to any other work it if they said no it really isn't.

Will you say yes?

...

Oh and. If the man takes your advice and advertises, sees punters etc.
And he does not agree it's a job like any other. But he needs to keep doing it.
You would... Not count him as a 'sex worker'?

Really strange posts.

Your points are well made CheeseMmmm although possibly for another thread.

There's a strong push for the popular notion in the press and underlying social belief that when it comes to most things that are not good, women are the root cause

^ this however is pertinent to the Bindel article and to some posters on here.

Sigh. Once again for the hard-of-thinking: the reason people sell sex is, in many cases, the reason why people sell their labour in many other job that are boring, distasteful, physically demanding and/or dangerous - they need money and resources and this is the most effective way for them to meet those needs.
So the way to help and support those who sell sex and want to stop doing so is to give them the resources they need. First and foremost, universal basic income and an overall strategy to reduce economic inequality. Secondly, a strategy to address the stigma which means that people who have engaged in sex work find it difficult to obtain another job because employers, on discovering past sex work, assume that the applicant is a drug-addled fuckup, a 'slut' or otherwise unemployable (let's not get into the grifters of the rescue industry who, if they offer alternative work at all, offer only low-level service work. OK, they offer grift opportunities, but only to a few and those are exploitative as well.)

All the strategies that would actually help sex workers are strategies that can and should be deployed to help everyone who is struggling and/or being exploited (UBI, safe migration routes, unionisation etc). All the strategies to tackle sex work that are rooted in puritanism and superstition do far, far more harm than good.