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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julie Bindel in the Critic - why women don't support feminism

140 replies

ArabellaScott · 31/12/2021 12:56

thecritic.co.uk/self-harm-in-sheeps-clothing/

'Women that hate feminism are practicing a form of self-harm, disguised as short-term protection. The job of feminists is to welcome those women into the fold.'

OP posts:
KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 19:39

@Wreath21

The idea that women entering professional work caused housing costs to rise to the point that most families now need two incomes is sort of plausible, but doesn't really stand up. A bigger reason for high housing costs is profiteering around property and the increasing acceptability of buying houses, etc to make a profit rather than have somewhere to live (and, of course, wage stagnation). Working class women have always worked, even in the days when men were routinely paid more (the 'family' wage, which was very nice indeed for men who didn't have or didn't want children). People's thinking about 'work' is very messed up, as well, whether that's the right-wing obsession with 'idleness' among the poor and how they must be made to occupy themselves and, most of all, learn obedience by being employed, or those like the silly kid I had an exchange of views with elsewhere on social media - 'If I had universal basic income I would spend my time volunteering and helping other people'... I asked what made this different from work? Thing is, there are a lot of necessary tasks that can't be automated away. We might be able to synthesise food and have it produced by robots, but someone still has to get it onto plates. The very young, the old and the sick still need to be looked after. There's still cleaning, production and maintenance work to be done in private homes as well as public and business premises. What needs to be looked at is how those tasks get allocated. Some people seem to think that, for instance, health care workers (with specific skills and qualifications) should also clean their workplaces - this doesn't seem to be the best use of their working time.
No indeed. I'm seeing a lot of handwringing going on about these terrible women who have entered into formerly male professions and it's all just so terrible because now women can't opt to not work. and that's so terrible (Although when exactly that was an option for other than wealthy families escapes me)

No practical suggestions offered but plenty of finger pointing and shaming and apparently it's not remotely unfair that men can have highly paid professional careers. I suppose they need them of course to be able to keep a wife at home to do womanly "domestic tasks"

The article itself was terrible but I've seen worse from Bindel, who appears to have forgotten she herself has been spectacularly nasty about mothers.

toomanytrees · 01/01/2022 20:31

I don't think people are saying it's terrible. It is just that there are downsides. Whether the downsides are acceptable or not is another question.

2Rebecca · 01/01/2022 20:55

Having read JB's article now I'm not sure what so many people here are getting so worked up about. Most of the stuff she says is sensible. I see nothing I strongly disagree with. The "be kind" mantra does seem to expect women to do most of the self sacrificing putting others first stuff and some women do love trying to save damaged and dangerous men rather than looking for well balanced men who are their equals and will be just as kind and considerate to them

Crazykatie · 01/01/2022 21:02

I’m not interested in feminism for its own sake, also I’m not interested being equal to men nor competing with them, I’m quite content being better than most of them
I’ve always made my own life, I’ve had the same chances as anyone else, a full 40yr career, reared 4 sons, most years my wages were more than my husband and I’m nothing special. The thing is I see so many who make the wrong decisions, the wrong men, an unrealistic career, making a mess of life and expecting someone else to pick up the pieces.
If women are going to make any progress they need to start by making the right decisions

SantaClawsServiette · 01/01/2022 21:31

@FlyingOink - thank you for your example. I think that's a good illustration, but I am so bad with arithmetic that I avoid it myself.

AWreath21 - I am not saying that no WC women worked and I don't think anyone else did either. Though I would say that not working has become less plausible for those women. But that doesn't really mean that it isn't a problem, because it means that the gap between the already maximized income of her family, and the now two-income professional family, has increased. And that has consequences in the big picture.

There is also the question of whether employment in itself is as rewarding for everyone. It's one thing to have the freedom to seek fulfillment in a career, but for a lot of people in a job that is not what gives their life meaning and fulfillment. For those women it might have been more fulfilling to be in a position to leave paid work and take care of their family or woek in the community in other ways.

SantaClawsServiette · 01/01/2022 21:37

@toomanytrees

I don't think people are saying it's terrible. It is just that there are downsides. Whether the downsides are acceptable or not is another question.
Right - social change isn't a binary right/wrong thing. It's a change in a complex system and it inevitably means that there will be all kinds of effects, some of them will probably not be great. Some may be really unexpected because we did not imagine certain things were connected.

It's important to try and look at these kinds of possibilities and see clearly what has happened. It's also important to see where advantaged may have been hijacked. Was the kind of feminism that put so much emphasis on women in the workforce adopted so widely because it gave the most benefit to women? Or because it gave the most benefit to women with political power? Or because it was best for industry and the GDP?

Powerful people will use whatever social changes they can to their own advantage and it helps no one to be naive about that.

MiladyBerserko · 01/01/2022 21:39

Bollocks.
Choice? How would you like sucking a manky cock? Do you really think all the punters wash them before, or do you think some might enjoy knowing that their cock is manky?

CheeseMmmm · 01/01/2022 22:02

Not quite caught up! We're talking activism here- women's rights, women in general demanding change etc.

Loads wanted better opportunities work/career wise for girls women. Not just feminists.
Women across society who were FFS discrimination/ hostility etc limiting us.
Same as other groups agitate for as well.
Gay men lesbians, disability, race, class, etc. All press for less discrimination work, equality of opportunity, talent not who you are smoothing progression/ introducing barriers.

PLUS

Women with families have always worked. This SAH with children financially secure idea is miles off full picture.

Before what the 60s. Women couldn't control fertility. Large families. My gran was one of 11. Her DH died when youngest was 1. No benefits etc. She did everything she could to get money to keep fed etc.

Over last couple hundred years or so we worked in factories, down mines, in shops, farming, stalls at markets, as seamstresses, servants/cooks/nannies for wealthy FAMILIES (not just wealthy women), teaching, etc and so on.

And children couldn't limit how many.

Work? Oh yes. Some types of women/jobs were barred from work after marriage, then it was once pregnant.

My great aunt was a doctor. Born early 1900s. When pregnant with first, game over. Did she take that lying down? No she fucking was livid. Fought.

Oh and just as an aside. During training in hosp. They put her on the VD ward for ages, not standard training rotation etc. Because obv would be peering at, handling dicks all day. Test her mettle, see if could get rid, also haha see how she likes that.

She was privileged- able to go uni when few women allowed, good job. She had to face shit to get through, not fold. Then told nope pregnant career over just because.

When was it that women could SAH on one income and family financially sound?

One tranche of women, one brief handful of years?

Or is this a rose coloured fantasy of the past?

CheeseMmmm · 01/01/2022 22:07

'So the questions are: 1) Which woman here has feminism been a win for? And 2) Given that when we look at class, it's advantaged the MC family, and disadvantaged the WC family, can we say that this has been a movement about class advantage?

Equal pay act

More awareness around DV, society no longer things AOK, stronger laws... Laws not working that's not because of feminists though it's govt police etc.

Increasing awareness sex offences. Rape, voyeurism, flashing, grooming, etc. Stronger laws. Again not working well, again not feminists fault, govt depts etc.

Raising awareness around fact laws don't work, going on about it so in press, parliament etc. Keeping in public eye, pushing, not just saying oh well and no one aware massive problems.

Refuges, rape crisis orgs

Well I mean there's loads.

What has activism around women's issues and rights achieved?

Nothing except help a tiny proportion of career women and made everything worse for all other women???

You're barking up the wrong tree here.

And it's derailing the thread.

Try looking into issues with CAPITALISM and PATRIARCHY, a toxic mix. Your concern about wc women, employment etc. That's where you need to be focusing.

To ignore those and say it's the fault of anyone advocating for better deal for women and girls is, frankly, to miss pretty much everything about the problems with structures etc in our society.

CheeseMmmm · 01/01/2022 22:08

And this is brought up frequently,

While this JB piece is interesting enough to devote s thread to.

Wreath21 · 01/01/2022 22:16

[quote SantaClawsServiette]@FlyingOink - thank you for your example. I think that's a good illustration, but I am so bad with arithmetic that I avoid it myself.

AWreath21 - I am not saying that no WC women worked and I don't think anyone else did either. Though I would say that not working has become less plausible for those women. But that doesn't really mean that it isn't a problem, because it means that the gap between the already maximized income of her family, and the now two-income professional family, has increased. And that has consequences in the big picture.

There is also the question of whether employment in itself is as rewarding for everyone. It's one thing to have the freedom to seek fulfillment in a career, but for a lot of people in a job that is not what gives their life meaning and fulfillment. For those women it might have been more fulfilling to be in a position to leave paid work and take care of their family or woek in the community in other ways.[/quote]
Employment is profoundly unrewarding for vast numbers of people, in every sense. Ever read Bullshit Jobs? (If not: it basically looks at various types of jobs which are completely pointless and make the people who do them miserable; the author distinguishes clearly between jobs which are distasteful or dangerous but necessary and jobs which appear to serve no purpose other than to keep the plebs obedient and occupied.)
Some types of job really could be dispensed with; others, which are not particularly 'fulfilling' but which are necessary, should be paid more to encourage people to do them. One of the biggest problems we have regarding 'work' is that the ruling classes really, really hate the idea of the lower orders having leisure time...

CheeseMmmm · 01/01/2022 22:32

Well yes, puritanical or protestant work ethic runs deep in England at least, where I live and society I know about.

Hard work, diligence, frugality etc.

It's v interesting.

Look on MN loads of threads espousing these views that came from religion, all over the place.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic

House prices escalating so much faster than wages?

Families needing two Incomes - when definitely all women could SAH with children no financial issues full stop, in unspecified point in past? Naturally all were married, had man who was reliable, owned home...?

Women and low pay, often insecure, unvalued jobs?

Etc etc.

Plenty of media, people etc. Definitely blame more or less EVERYTHING on women, especially mothers. And at the root is BLOODY FEMINISTS encouraging women to try and be more like men! Which is against their natures, ridiculous, makes everything worse for everyone. And destructive to society.

Well we're responsible for nearly everything.
Hurricanes are because of homosexual people. At least it's only women who are lesbians guilty on that one.

CheeseMmmm · 01/01/2022 22:35

Plus issues which should be seen as societal eg child poverty.

Are dumped into women's issues, women need to cover those things off as well as all the other shit!

FFS.

Anyway. JB eh?

Great on some things.

Really not so much on others.

JB is a person not the arbiter of all feminism.

No point looking at what she thinks and saying OHO FEMINISTS THINK THAT!

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/01/2022 22:35

It really isn't moreinherentlyunsafe than many other jobs - and most of what makes it unsafe is the stigma and the puritanical, misogynistic laws around it.

Though those who are opposed to sex work should probably start thinking about the fact that thebestway to enable people who would rather stop doing sex work to stop doing it is to introduce universal basic income. People who sell sex and hate doing so, only continue to do so because they need money and resources.

  1. I entirely agree that introducing universal income or at least introducing easy to claim unemployment and disability benefits (that are sufficient to live on) would provide an alternative for those women in survival prostitution.

However it will not solve the issue of the women who are trafficked to meet the demands of sex-buying men.

  1. Catch yourself on.

Exactly how much personal protective equipment are nurses expected to use to provide personal care when handling bodily fluids?

Sex certainly involves exposure to bodily fluids, does it not? Meanwhile, due to us being in a pandemic of an airborne virus, I have to wear a mask when I enter a supermarket in case I pass within six feet of a fellow shopper.

Again, sex involves being considerably closer than six feet to someone.

CheeseMmmm · 01/01/2022 22:47

Oh yes and sod JB. And let's talk about something she is v strong on, and how she's wrong even on that!

'most of what makes it unsafe is the stigma and the puritanical, misogynistic laws around it.'

Really?

Nothing to do with the inherent obvious dangers that being in v vulnerable situations with men they don't know, men who have paid them for various sex acts..

Men who, despite the popular idea that it's women who are the most judgemental about women who earn money that way..

Are extreme in their judgements around women, girls, sex, in the same way they globally historically have consistently been.

And with a very special judgement reserved for women that are paid to comply with the sexual desires of men.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/01/2022 23:00

This is the article that has done the most to explain to me why I see prostitution constantly dismissed as an easy 'job'.

extract

The world is disturbingly comfortable with the fact that women sometimes leave a sexual encounter in tears.

(continues)

The real problem isn't that we — as a culture — don't sufficiently consider men's biological reality. The problem is rather that theirs is literally the only biological reality we ever bother to consider.

So let's actually talk bodies. Let's take bodies and the facts of sex seriously for a change. And let's allow some women back into the equation, shall we? Because if you're going to wax poetic about male pleasure, you had better be ready to talk about its secret, unpleasant, ubiquitous cousin: female pain.

Research shows that 30 percent of women report pain during vaginal sex, 72 percent report pain during anal sex, and "large proportions" don't tell their partners when sex hurts.

That matters, because nowhere is our lack of practice at thinking about non-male biological realities more evident than when we talk about "bad sex." For all the calls fornuancein this discussion of what does and doesn't constitute harassment or assault, I've been dumbstruck by the flattening work of that phrase — specifically, the assumption that "bad sex" means the same thing to men who have sex with women as it does to women who have sex with men.

The studies on this are few. A casual survey of forums where people discuss "bad sex" suggests that men tend to use the term to describe a passive partner or a boring experience. (Here's a very unscientific Twitter pollI did that found just that.) But when most women talk about "bad sex," they tend to mean coercion, or emotional discomfort or, even more commonly, physical pain.Debby Herbenick, a professor at the Indiana University School of Public Health, and one of the forces behind the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior, confirmed this. "When it comes to 'good sex,'" she told me, "women often mean without pain, men often mean they had orgasms."

As for bad sex, University of Michigan Professor Sara McClelland, another one of the few scholars who has done rigorous work on this issue, discovered in the course of her research on how young men and women rate sexual satisfaction that "men and women imagined a very different low end of the sexual satisfaction scale."

While women imagined the low end to include the potential for extremely negative feelings and the potential for pain, men imagined the low end to represent the potential for less satisfying sexual outcomes, but they never imagined harmful or damaging outcomes for themselves. ["Intimate Justice: Sexual satisfaction in young adults"]

Once you've absorbed how horrifying this is, you might reasonably conclude that our "reckoning" over sexual assault and harassment has suffered because men and women have entirely different rating scales. An 8 on a man's Bad Sex scale is like a 1 on a woman's. This tendency for men and women to use the same term — bad sex — to describe experiences an objective observer would characterize as vastly different is the flip side of a known psychological phenomenon called "relative deprivation," by which disenfranchised groups, having been trained to expect little, tend paradoxically to report the same levels of satisfaction as their better-treated, more privileged peers.

This is one reason why Sullivan's attempt to naturalize the status quo is so damaging.

When a woman says "I'm uncomfortable" and leaves a sexual encounter in tears, then, maybe she's not being a fragile flower with no tolerance for discomfort. And maybe we could stand to think a little harder about the biological realities a lot of women deal with, because unfortunately, painful sex isn't the exceptional outlier we like to pretend it is. It's pretty damn common.

In considering Sullivan's proposal, we might also, provisionally, and just as a thought experiment, accept that biology — or "nature" — coexists with history and sometimes replicates the lopsided biases of its time.

(Continues)

This is certainly true of medicine. Back in the 17th century, the conventional wisdom was that women were the ones with the rampant, undisciplined sexual appetites. That things have changed doesn't mean they're necessarily better. These days, a man can walk out of his doctor's office with a prescription for Viagra based on little but a self-report, but it still takes a woman, on average, 9.28 years of suffering to be diagnosed with endometriosis, a condition caused by endometrial tissue growing outside the uterus. By that time, many find that not just sex but everyday existence has become a life-deforming challenge. That's a blunt biological reality if ever there was one.

Or, since sex is the subject here, what about how our society's scientific community has treated female dyspareunia — the severe physical pain some women experience during sex — vs. erectile dysfunction (which, while lamentable, is not painful)? PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43.

Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right.

Continues theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure

namitynamechange · 01/01/2022 23:29

I also think that if you want to position feminism more towards working class women as a class, maybe don't say cleaning/other jobs more associated with WC women are the same as prostitution. Because that's kind of insulting for lots of reasons (and none of those reasons are because I look down on sex workers BTW).

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 00:00

I mean it's such a fundamentally weak argument, especially to huge numbers of women who have sex with men (and haven't been very very lucky).

Are we supposed to ignore our experiences around men and sex? Including the ones when we were much younger and early on in being sexually active?

We're supposed to our pretend that we don't know that loads of men and boys do all sorts of shit? Even ones we trust/like/know etc?

And if sexual activity paid for... The quite obvious additional risks?

The constant insistence that danger, harm happens due to 'stigma' (word of the year for some groups of people), the law, or general misognyny across society...

Rather than MEN.

It's a vv tough sell esp to women, isn't it?

  • The group who MASSIVELY stigmatise women who sell sex...
Joke about, put at very bottom of male valuation of women scale, call all sorts of names, express zero empathy with, feel revulsion towards even if they pay for sex...

Everyone knows it's men (group, namalt etc

  • It's legal. Big arguments about how should work. An even BIGGER derail. One note- when it comes to MVAWG how are the laws working to reduce that...
  • Misogyny. Across society. Not behaviour (misogynist) of the men who do the actual harm. No sirree Bob. Women are just as responsible for men harming women, as the men who do the actual harm.

I mean in the end. If a man pays s woman for sex, and inflicts violence, sexual violence, sometimes murder. Is it his fault? Given he's not mentioned in the reasons given why this risk exists.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 00:12

@namitynamechange

I also think that if you want to position feminism more towards working class women as a class, maybe don't say cleaning/other jobs more associated with WC women are the same as prostitution. Because that's kind of insulting for lots of reasons (and none of those reasons are because I look down on sex workers BTW).
Hold on back up!

The prevailing message about 'sex work' in the media online etc.

Is that it's

  • extremely lucrative, massive income even if don't do much, easy work
  • great for women because v flexible hours
  • especially good for students (usually forget to mention it's mostly female ones)
  • most women who do this are v privileged, not desperate for cash
  • empowering
  • many women derive sexual pleasure from earning money this way
  • punters usually polite, good looking, extremely well behaved, respectful
  • ...

That's very confusing.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 00:34

It's also interesting to note that-

On a thread about JB piece where vast majority of posters are posting negative comments about this piece,

And I think it's fair to say both the privileged/WC point raised and the prostitution point raised, were not done so by those who admire JB work andwere interested to read her thoughts...

Why not join in with the commentary on the piece?

Is the name JB in itself seen as a thread to derail to
-why feminism has been worse than useless

  • why prostitution is really no different to any other job and society etc needs to stop saying it is?

I assume the first relates to her being an academic and the second to her work.

But given the fact the thread is the opposite of yay JB, why the need to derail and so STOP a bunch of feminist women giving her a bit of a kicking?

Can you say?
Seems counter productive on this thread!

KimikosNightmare · 02/01/2022 00:45

Oh yes and sod JB. And let's talk about something she is v strong on, and how she's wrong even on that!

'most of what makes it unsafe is the stigma and the puritanical, misogynistic laws around it.'

Golly, is that a quote by Bindel? It sounds like pro- punter claim. I've seen that said on here by the pro- punter lobby.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 01:03

Lol no it's a quote from poster on here!

JB seems to have issues with loads of women, and with having children pretty much full stop.

But she's definitely sound on anything to do with sexual exploitation. And the org to get justice for women done great stuff.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 01:06

Oh what I meant with what you copied was-

While the piece linked has more than enough to criticise.

Still the thread attracts comment related to the area that she is rightly applauded for!

Seems odd to try to move away from criticising JB, to an area where most posters will be on same page as JB!

ah well.

KimikosNightmare · 02/01/2022 01:07

@CheeseMmmm

Lol no it's a quote from poster on here!

JB seems to have issues with loads of women, and with having children pretty much full stop.

But she's definitely sound on anything to do with sexual exploitation. And the org to get justice for women done great stuff.

Phew ! Thanks.

Bindel is great on sexual exploitation , but yes, as you say - other stuff can be problematic.

CheeseMmmm · 02/01/2022 01:17

Very much so.

In the end everyone is complicated, no one is perfect as it were.

These days it seems that's a fact that's pretty impossible to get to grips with for many.

Any step out of how others have decided you should be. And that negates everything else. Or, for some. Ignore/deny any ?? because impossible they think/said that.

Jkr excellent example of this. Burning her books!!! Really 🤣🤣🤣

Also the common reaction. If one person who you have categorised as in this group. If anyone you've put in that group says/does something shit. It means that every single person you've decided is in that group believes the shit thing too.

So boring.

But then... Always the same.

Remember M Jackson fans when trial?

Or whoopi g saying of Polanski it wasn't 'rape rape'

Loads of that stuff.

It's tricky when people turn out to be just... People. Rather than perfect.

(Rape is far from just not perfect... Think everyone knows what I mean though).