To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

[Blackbird1234]

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

I have never seen anyone here telling anyone to 'educate themselves'. That's a phrase normally directed at us Terfs in a drive by woke scolding.

But assuming you are for real OP, how do you think the embryo gets implanted into a surrogate mother without the need for fertility drugs? A woman's body isn't just ready for a random embryo to be plopped in and 'cooked' to order. Drugs need to be used to prepare the surrogate woman's body to receive the embryo (unless it's her own egg and a turkey baster)!

Also I think there is a decent bit of homophobia on here that opposes gay men even adopting.

On this thread? Where?

I'm another who doesn't see a scale. It's all wrong.

@Blackbird1234 - you apparently live in France. You know that surrogacy is illegal in France right?

@crunchermuncher

before I was on mumsnet/read up about the ethics of surrogacy, I honestly never considered how the baby actually gets made for a surrogate pregnancy in very much detail. I guess I just assumed it was some sort of fertility treatment or arranged conception, but I didnt know about the effects on womens bodies as a result of fertility treatment, or how much is actually involved.

What homophobic comments have you seen on this board or Mumsnet, Flowers500

@PurpleDaisies

I would also like to see where and which comments, because otherwise unless someone can show me that this opinion is commonplace here, it leads me to think that certain people would like the following to happen -

Women start discussing something that does, or has the potential to inhibit what men want.

Quickly link their opinions with the following -

Transphobia

Homophobia

Racism

Whorephobia

I don't get the repeated conflation of adoption and surrogacy on this thread. They are two very different scenarios, as repeatedly outlined by various posters.

Gay adoption? Crack on, if you're in a position to provide a stable and loving home. Gay men using a woman to provide a baby, usually purchased as a commodity? Completely different, and IMO not ok. It's nothing to do with them being gay (except that's why they can't have a baby of their own), it's about women and children being commodified. Whether the commissioning parents are gay, straight or whatever is not relevant.

In some North African cultures it's customary for siblings to have a baby for their childless sibling. If you read 18th century history that's also not anything unusual either. Many countries have high rates of children being born with different actual fathers to those on the birth cert. This whole site is full of people whose children have unless parent(s) that they won't be around long term, if they're lucky.

And we now know a lot more from the child’s perspective on how they feel about this. Do you honestly think that historical incidences mean it is ok now? What else do you apply that to?

And you comparator of ‘useless’ parents is in no way relevant to people commoditising a woman’s womb and designing a child for the purpose to fulfill a wish for a family.

I think there are a couple of 'false flag' comments on here. One from a poster who ALWAYS posts TRA supportive comments all over FWR and AIBU and another quoting that and agreeing with it. Both ostensibly supporting 'traditional families'.

MN have removed one. I've just asked them to look at the other.

Can't think of much that's lower in debating terms than posting homophobia on a website you don't like so you can get your mates riled up about how reactionary that website is.

@Mumteedum

Because poor women in poor countries are exploited by wealthy western couples.

Because renting someone's body is unethical despite any notion of consent. Should be be able to consent to life changing pregnancy complications or even death?

Because it's not in the child's interest, it's all about the adopting parents.

This.

Earthsight Yes!

@Blackbird1234

Not sure how this fits in but a main issue seems to be the fact of people "buying" children. Does that mean that you also see fault with adoption? Or no, simply because money isn't necessarily exchanged?

Adoption is trying to make the best of a bad situation, where the mother can't look after the child. Or the child is at risk. Surrogacy is making a baby with the sole intention of removing it from its mother, shortly after birth. The baby has no say in the matter. Babies don't know much when they born, but they know who their mother is.

@crunchermuncher I had zero idea, when I hear "fertility treatment" the first thing that comes to mind is treatment for someone who isn't fertile. As I said, I know absolutely zero about this entire topic which is why I asked the question in the first place. Now I know.

@Clymene Nope, no idea at all it's illegal in France, but now I do.

I think I may have inadvertently started some of the 'scale' thinking: for clarity, I personally think all surrogacy is wrong. However, I think that most people coming to the issue for the first time have a very different image in their mind, they think of the 'sister giving a beautiful gift' situation and so it can be helpful to say, well, that's one end of a spectrum, and it's currently a legal end in the UK, but actually the thing that's tuned most of us into having a class analysis of surrogacy is something completely different.

I personally accept the rules in the UK as being OK but imperfect, in much the same way as I think the abortion rules are OK but imperfect, but the issue is always wider, broader and deeper than that.

@lochmaree Indeed, I genuinely thought it was a lovely thing for someone to do for someone who can't have kids. If that's what I thought then I certainly hadn't thought about the ins and outs of the sciency side! 😂 This thread has proved really interesting though, my boyfriend was of the same opinion as me and was super shocked to find out everything I've learned on here, so that's 2 people who now know more than they did this morning.
Thanks! Homage to the Beatles 😊

How long do 'birthing canines' have with their puppies?

Given how much is being charged for a puppy now, I would like to see the comparison between time served between birthing bitches and women, and how much time is permitted after the birth. Then we would know the value of the thing.

@GoGoGretaDoll My mention of "scale" was purely in reference to the different opinions on this thread as there seem to be a few. I didnt mean that there was a real life scale, I dont nearly know enough to claim that at all. But I get completely what you're saying and agree the issue is always broader.

Surrogacy is in the majority of cases a result of Desperation and Poverty. Very rearly is it an altruistic act.

I could be remembering incorrectly, but have I also read that sometimes couples seeking fertility services get incentives for donating eggs?!?

I could be misremembering but I thought I had seen this discussed in a US news service.

The thought is that the woman wanting fertility treatment has maximum egg stimulation (massive health risk) but can get incentive on her own treatment.

Happy to be told I am misremembering.

I have had several friends have various assistance in conceiving. The woman’s health in all cases was affected during this treatment in some way. Stimulating egg production is not a benign treatment. Ever. Anyone believing it is, is determined to ignore the reality.

@AutumnAnn

Some people on here seem to believe a woman is incapable of willingly making the decision to carry a baby for another person and seem to think every surrogate is a slave to their body/ made to do it... etc.

This

Some people have clearly not RTFT.

It makes my heart and head hurt. The thought of having one of my babies taken from me makes my blood run cold. Even if I didn't have a biological connection to the baby and knew it was a surrogacy pregnancy - it would be so traumatic.

Both of my children were immediately soothed by my voice, my smell, my breast milk. How you can deny a baby this is beggars belief.

Surrogacy is a commodity. If you can't carry anymore babies, don't have anymore.

We live in a society that is ruled by 'I want it so I'll buy it'.

Children should not be bought.

There was a documentary on the BBC maybe only last year about seemingly unregulated surrogacy in the UK. Most of the women were inseminating themselves at home with freshly donated sperm, and were therefore handing over their own biological baby at the end of it.

The programme clearly had a very pro-surrogacy agenda, and they really presented this whole thing as kind women doing nice things for other people. It was absolutely chilling.

We live in a society that is ruled by 'I want it so I'll buy it'

I think this is a big part of it. We're fast becoming a society that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Where we create markets for things that should never be for sale.