To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

[Blackbird1234]

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

Surrogacy is sold as "a gift of love" (see advertisements on Instagram from the agency Extraordinary Conceptions for instance) but they don't receive that love, or even basic respect, in return.

Worse, they are often treated with contempt.

Probably by people who wouldn't dream of eating a battery farmed egg.

Surrogacy centres the desires of the commissioning parents above all else. The child is involved in this issue is presented as a commodity, the subject of a contract. I saw this in an Independent article from many years ago, it has still stuck with me.

Should children be the subject of a contract?

When some of us compare this with adoption in the UK, involving statutory authorities and the courts, we have to remember that this process centres the child.
It's not an easy process but is about the making the best of a difficult situation. The child is already here and how best can their welfare needs be met outside of the birth family. The courts and local authorities are involved and rightly so.

Surrogacy involves little, if any safeguarding and does not centre the child.

Earlier in the thread Star said surrogacy is OK because it doesn't always go wrong. I asked her if drink driving is OK because that doesn't always result in an accident and she dismissed it as a ridiculous comparison so I'm some what amused to see she uses driving as an analogy during her (presumably drunk) rambles last night.

@FannyCann
There will be a cohort of women of child-bearing age whose personal lives have left them emotionally and financially vulnerable. It's easy to see how they could be pulled into this, particularly if they are lone parents, have significant debt etc.

Unfortunately those vulnerable women seem to be not worthy of protection if they consent.

All through this thread, I have seen a confusion as to what coercion is and a lack of understanding of power imbalance and how that effects consent.

Surrogacy is one of those instances in life where even the most edge case where consent has been influenced by any coercive force needs to be addressed. Because, this is absolutely exploiting at least one woman’s body for the purpose of having children.

Unfortunately those vulnerable women seem to be not worthy of protection if they consent.

By some people, I need to add for clarity.

Just wanted to post this prize winning essay which I think gives an excellent explanation of the feminist view point.

I particularly like her closing paragraph.

"Law and policy is developing and changing across the world and it is vital that the rights of women and children are always the foremost consideration. I have argued for an abolitionist approach because a regulatory harm reduction approach does not advance the aim of feminism. Industrialising patriarchal norms is not compatible with a political movement that demands the emancipation of all women. Feminism cannot succeed by sacrificing the most disenfranchised women to patriarchy, restricting its interest to making improvements to the conditions of their abuse. Surrogacy must be prohibited."

objectnow.org/how-do-altruistic-and-commercial-surrogacy-affect-the-rights-of-women-and-children/

[quote FannyCann]Just wanted to post this prize winning essay which I think gives an excellent explanation of the feminist view point.

I particularly like her closing paragraph.

"Law and policy is developing and changing across the world and it is vital that the rights of women and children are always the foremost consideration. I have argued for an abolitionist approach because a regulatory harm reduction approach does not advance the aim of feminism. Industrialising patriarchal norms is not compatible with a political movement that demands the emancipation of all women. Feminism cannot succeed by sacrificing the most disenfranchised women to patriarchy, restricting its interest to making improvements to the conditions of their abuse. Surrogacy must be prohibited."

objectnow.org/how-do-altruistic-and-commercial-surrogacy-affect-the-rights-of-women-and-children/[/quote]
I think that sums it up well for me.

Surrogacy sits at the cross roads of ultra capitalism where anything (or anyone) can be bought or sold and anti-feminism (where women are particularly vulnerable for a number of reasons).

I find it hard to comprehend people on the (sometimes hard) left advocating for surrogacy for this reason

I find it hard to comprehend people on the (sometimes hard) left advocating for surrogacy for this reason

That's because the rhetoric changed from everyone should get what they need to everyone must get what they want coupled with the fact that the ones with the most power, the loudest voices,the most wealth are never women so their wants and even needs are low low down on the list if they even feature at all.

I agree.

'From each, according to his needs, to each according to how loud he shouts about it on social media'

Means. Not needs!

That dreadful picture/ad by Extraordinary Conceptions!! (above, posted by FannyCann)

That couple are not even holding the baby properly, it's at arm's length and it looks as if they are just about to drop it. Which one of them is supposed to be holding it? Do they think that it is a doll? Why are they waving toys in the face of a newborn??

That couple should not be in charge of a hamster

Surrogacy sits at the cross roads of ultra capitalism where anything (or anyone) can be bought or sold and anti-feminism (where women are particularly vulnerable for a number of reasons).

I like that Red.
I'm not very good at the political/feminist theory side of things. I love a neat sound bite! 👌

I'm looking for a link to a recent radio show about surrogacy in Ukraine. Not posted on this thread but I'm sure I got it from Mumsnet/another thread.
Sort of investigative journalism type thing, the (female) reporter was concerned for the women but reluctant to take a view that it should be banned as they needed the income so concluded it wasn't straightforward.
Does it ring any bells with anyone?
It wasn't on bbc sounds I'm sure, I wasn't familiar with the channel.

Here it is for anyone interested.

www.channel4.com/news/georgias-booming-baby-market

@OhHolyJesus
Thank you! I have indeed learnt a lot and was slightly overwhelmed, which is why I'm only posting now.

In a nutshell, my opinion now is that surrogacy in general is of no benefit to the child, therefore its unethical. Even in the most perfect of situations, when both parties fully consent, when it's a simple wonderful gift to someone etc etc, it's still isn't of any benefit to the child (who cant consent) and there are many many dark sides to it all.

Regardless of the slight derailing of the thread (😂) thank you to every poster who participated, I've learnt a lot about a subject I knew nothing about, so I'm grateful for the insight and opinions 😊

Wow! What an incredible thread! I was on holiday break but read the whole thing! @Blackbird1234 I just want to commend you for your questions and sticking through despite tough responses sent your way. You said you were young, but you're clearly thoughtful and open minded. I hope all the resources will be useful in the future.

I never really thought much about surrogacy until I was older and tried to become pregnant. There is a Friends episode where Phoebe tries to get Rachel to ask if she can keep one of the triplets she birthed for her brother and SIL. Even though it was fiction, Phoebe's sadness at giving up those babies suck with me for years.

Babies need their mothers at birth and while we know this isn't always possible, i feel it should always be the goal. Adoption is a way to give a child a family, but I don't think it's okay to purposely create a child in order to remove it from its mother. I would not have known this until I had my own children- it's why I counsel young girls to be careful to use birth control, it's why I advocate against forced birth in my country (the US is losing abortion rights) and why I am opposed to all advertising/commercialization for egg donation and am thoroughly opposed to surrogacy.

I would not have even considered these topics at your age, so let me again say how impressed I am with your pursuit of information and opinion. Happy New Year!

*stuck with me

It sounds obvious to me now, but I didn't realise how many questions young children ask and their need to belong and desire to not feel different. I had regular pregnancies, but my DCs still had and have questions. The children born through surrogacy will ask questions and learn that they were acquired, like a pet.

I wonder how they feel about that, whether in the future more will speak up about this issue.

Here's a resource that documents children born of donors. Some are from surrogacy.

www.wearedonorconceived.com/

@Delphinium20 thanks for the link, one of the subheadings really stood out to me:
I AM NOT FOR SALE. I AM YOUR DAUGHTER.

Surrogacy and donation legislation should really consider the DC best interests - can it ever benefit a DC to be created as an acquisition?

Agree with others - this is a superb thread and well done OP for sticking with it. I think many of us started with rose-tinted spectacles on this topic; no surprise given the clever marketing.

Given the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child it is extraordinary how little consideration is given to the children who are 'born to order'.

This video of such children, now adults, reporting back to the UN is so powerful: www.wearedonorconceived.com/homepage-featured-article/donor-conceived-people-present-at-the-united-nations/ (apologies if it has already been posted).

[quote Delphinium20]Here's a resource that documents children born of donors. Some are from surrogacy.

www.wearedonorconceived.com/[/quote]
Thank you Delphinium.

Albeit this study is from people actively engaged with that site, however their 2019 study had this result.

Forty eight percent of participants agreed with the statement “the method of my conception causes me to feel distressed, angry, or sad’

That is a huge indication that this is a cause for concern.

www.wearedonorconceived.com/uncategorized/we-are-donor-conceived-2019-survey-results/

I watched those UN testimonies and they are powerful.

Another blog from the perspective of an adult donor-conceived child. It's extremely well written, wise, gut-wrenchingly honest and it speaks to the absolute need to consider the non-consenting child when making policy.

abandonedbydefault.wordpress.com/

Sorry the 2020 study has more concerning results:

Seventy one percent of participants agreed with the statement “the method of my conception sometimes causes me to feel distressed, angry, or sad” and nearly half (47%) said they sometimes feel sad, disappointed, or angry that their parents chose to create them using donor gametes.

www.wearedonorconceived.com/2020-survey-top/2020-we-are-donor-conceived-survey/

Surely, there needs to be so much discussion about this. 71% is hard to ignore.