To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

[Blackbird1234]

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

@KimikosNightmare

And what the hell has forced marriage got to do with surrogacy? That happens as part of certain cultures and thousands of women are in that situation each year

It’s not illegal and how do you prove it’s forced…..?

Forced marriage is illegal.

Oh well in that case, it won’t happen if it’s illegal…..

My dissatisfaction with the illegal and abusive practice of forced marriage?

It's not exactly 'dissatisfaction'...

Where am I doing the explaining to this crowd of thousands? Can you let me know? January is a bit tight to be honest - the kids are back at school and the house is upside down after Christmas but if you think it can be quick-ish (and local) I can do sometime in the second week?

Brilliant come back - well with the effort to get your point across 👏

Ffs, this is painful....

@ldontWanna

Ffs, this is painful....

IKR?

Is it time for cake recipes?

Is this ‘bonding’ chat between similar view points. Aww it’s Lovely 😊

We don’t believe women when they say they want to do it as they see it as a positive in order to help someone.

I’ll ask you again Starcup, in this scenario, how do you create a legal framework that protects all three parties’ rights?

@NotBadConsidering

We don’t believe women when they say they want to do it as they see it as a positive in order to help someone.

I’ll ask you again Starcup, in this scenario, how do you create a legal framework that protects all three parties’ rights?

I don’t create a legal framework….

Had it not already been done previously? Has another poster not previously told she’s done it twice… ask her about your legal framework.

@Starcup

Is this ‘bonding’ chat between similar view points. Aww it’s Lovely 😊

Well it's marginally more useful than discussing surrogacy with someone who doesn't seem to really understand any of the ethical issues involved; ignores all points made and questions posed and constantly says, 'good luck explaining that to all the people who do x' as though that's a winning argument.

Surrogacy is bad for babies. Therefore it is unethical. That is as simple as I can make it.

Did someone say cake?
Isn't that what surrogate mothers are encouraged to think of themselves? Just an oven, baking a cake?

Had it not already been done previously? Has another poster not previously told she’s done it twice… ask her about your legal framework.

But you’re the one who thinks women who choose freely to do it should be allowed to, but it seems you’re happy to defer the difficult decisions of actually looking after those women to other people. Which means you don’t actually care about those women who choose to do it. There’s a lot of hand waving and putting things in the too hard basket.

But it’s exactly these sorts of decisions around protections that have to be decided before you say anyone can be free to do it. The reason you can’t or won’t engage with this question is because you clearly see it’s not possible. You must identify that you’re happy to let these women choose to do it but don’t care about the consequences to them as long as you get to say you’re all for their choice. It’s a very immature teenage way of debating.

Oh no, oven is so early 2000s, now it's 'extreme babysitter' (though the addictive part is equally as worrying).

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/surrogacy-addictive-see-role-extreme-babysitting/

It's slightly ironic too as on a per hourly rate you would be paid more if you were just babysitting and not growing a human.

There’s a lot of hand waving and putting things in the too hard basket.

I think my question about known risk and no known risks must also have been tossed in this basket, can someone root it out? I'd really like to know the answer, or is there no known answer?

I don’t create a legal framework

TBH I think it's just as well as I agree that you appear to be

someone who doesn't seem to really understand any of the ethical issues involved; ignores all points made and questions posed and constantly says, 'good luck explaining that to all the people who do x' as though that's a winning argument.

It is a shame then that those making the laws, so far, would probably follow Star's debating tips.

@FannyCann was it you who went to a public consultation event and they said "we're not doctors" in response to a question from the audience? As if it was a very silly idea, that doctors might be involved in a law change being built around surrogacy which er...involves conception, pregnancy and labour...

Yes it was me OhHolyJesus

I didn't know half what I know now back then or I'd have been able to ask much better questions. But another person asked about egg donation, and when pushed they announced they were lawyers, not doctors. You'd think in that case they might have asked for someone from the RCOG or something to contribute to the consultation but they aren't concerned about safeguarding the health of mothers.

I thought this might be a good time to kink a surrogacy resource thread I started two years ago. It could probably do with having some new material added to it. The consultation seems a long time ago now, and the date for presenting recommendations to parliament has been put back twice I think. Currently I believe late 2022 is the goal.

Surrogacy Resource thread : please post your links here
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3782983-surrogacy-resource-thread-please-post-your-links-here

Surrogacy is bad for babies. Therefore it is unethical. That is as simple as I can make it

So is bringing babies up in shit circumstances in general it could be argued but that would apply to far more people so that doesn’t count…..

@NotBadConsidering

Had it not already been done previously? Has another poster not previously told she’s done it twice… ask her about your legal framework.

But you’re the one who thinks women who choose freely to do it should be allowed to, but it seems you’re happy to defer the difficult decisions of actually looking after those women to other people. Which means you don’t actually care about those women who choose to do it. There’s a lot of hand waving and putting things in the too hard basket.

But it’s exactly these sorts of decisions around protections that have to be decided before you say anyone can be free to do it. The reason you can’t or won’t engage with this question is because you clearly see it’s not possible. You must identify that you’re happy to let these women choose to do it but don’t care about the consequences to them as long as you get to say you’re all for their choice. It’s a very immature teenage way of debating.

Choice choice choice. There you go….

@OhHolyJesus

I don’t create a legal framework

TBH I think it's just as well as I agree that you appear to be

someone who doesn't seem to really understand any of the ethical issues involved; ignores all points made and questions posed and constantly says, 'good luck explaining that to all the people who do x' as though that's a winning argument.

It is a shame then that those making the laws, so far, would probably follow Star's debating tips.

@FannyCann was it you who went to a public consultation event and they said "we're not doctors" in response to a question from the audience? As if it was a very silly idea, that doctors might be involved in a law change being built around surrogacy which er...involves conception, pregnancy and labour...

And it’s a good job you don’t make any of the laws surrounding women or we’d go backwards, because they wouldn’t be allowed to think for themselves.

Stay at home now, be a good girl. No no, you can’t do XY or Z, you can’t be trusted to make decisions sweetheart

Cotton wool anyone?

Oh and @OhHolyJesus do you agree or disagree with IVF? Either using donor eggs or a woman’s own eggs?

I thought I read on the other thread your criticisms?

I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong

Choice choice choice. There you go

Choice to get a tattoo. Let’s not worry about making sure recipients don’t contract Hepatitis B or C.

Choice to drink. Let’s not worry if someone gets behind a wheel.

Do you think everyone should be free to choose to do whatever they want and no one should put any protections in place?

So you think these women should be allowed to choose, then who cares about the consequences?

No it's ok Star the men are already in charge, reforming the surrogacy laws. Remember Ollie Locke? He wants to reform the laws, to his own end. We can trust him to make good decisions can't we? Let the men get on and do what they do best.

If you had your way I'd be leaving them to it because my views are too extreme but

because I am allowed to think for myself

I'll ignore you.

@Starcup

Oh and *@OhHolyJesus* do you agree or disagree with IVF? Either using donor eggs or a woman’s own eggs?

I thought I read on the other thread your criticisms?

I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong

No, back to my unanswered questions first.

@NotBadConsidering

Choice choice choice. There you go

Choice to get a tattoo. Let’s not worry about making sure recipients don’t contract Hepatitis B or C.

Choice to drink. Let’s not worry if someone gets behind a wheel.

Do you think everyone should be free to choose to do whatever they want and no one should put any protections in place?

So you think these women should be allowed to choose, then who cares about the consequences?

Yes they can risk assess the situation for themselves max you don’t need to be involved.

There’s another thread currently running about a woman using a sperm bank and I dread to think what any of you would say to her. I sincerely hope you aren’t as judgmental about her decision… poor woman if you lot get on to her

@OhHolyJesus

No it's ok Star the men are already in charge, reforming the surrogacy laws. Remember Ollie Locke? He wants to reform the laws, to his own end. We can trust him to make good decisions can't we? Let the men get on and do what they do best.

If you had your way I'd be leaving them to it because my views are too extreme but

because I am allowed to think for myself

I'll ignore you.

There we have it ladies and gentlemen, always has to be referred back to men! Every. Single. Time.

But do you know what, men have nothing to do with the best friend surrogate do they…..

No, back to my unanswered questions first

I’ll take that as you disagree with the NHS paying for IVF. I think that’s what you were saying…..