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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

987 replies

Blackbird1234 · 30/12/2021 18:29

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

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Starcup · 31/12/2021 18:27

@Runningupthecurtains

But that’s my point, some people view surrogacy of any sort to be immoral and they lump it under the same umbrella term as ‘immoral under every set of circumstances’.

They don’t care what the circumstances are and they view the gesture of a best friend offering to be the surrogate to enable her childless friend have her own baby as almost criminal.
I'm not sure what the point is in the first sentence - some people think sex outside of marriage is immoral - that's their view and they are allowed to hold that view.
I'm slightly on the fence about genuinely altruistic surrogacy because I have concerns about the outcomes when something doesn't go according to plan and because some women could be made to feel that they should acts as surrogates because it would make their sister/friend happy. I also have doubts about the resulting children will feel about the circumstances that they were born into but I recognize that this is almost impossible to regulate against as it can be done on the QT. It would be legally very hard to stop woman A having a baby with man B and allowing him full custody on the birth of the child (even if B happens to be married to A's sister). Likewise it would be hard to stop lesbian couple C&D meeting gay couple E&F and deciding that C & E will have a child that C&D raise while D&F have a child that E&F raise. Commercial surrogacy and indeed any that uses fertility treatments are much easier to legislate against.

The point is that some can’t/won’t distinguish between different circumstances. You’ve said yourself you can see there are differences.

It’s not to say that there aren’t pitfalls in the more altruistic surrogacy, buy by judging your comments, you can appreciate it not the same as a rich western couple paying money to a woman in a third world county to be their surrogate.

Some people view it equally as bad. Then there’s the ones that go a step further and view any medical intervention to help a woman have her own baby equally bad again.

People are of course entitled to their opinions but I do think people pass judgements about others without considering that not everything can be lumped together as ‘terrible’

crunchermuncher · 31/12/2021 19:38

@Lovelyricepudding

crunchermuncher we were talking about under-the-radar informal arrangements with the 'turkey baster' or ONS and the lack of protections in these - not the formal adoption route.
Ah apologies, I had missed that subtlety.

Blackbird1234 I apologise for not thinking you were posting in good faith yesterday. Thanks for responding so maturely. Im glad this thread has been useful :)

Clymene · 31/12/2021 19:59

@Runningupthecurtains - Well you can't prevent a parent from giving up all parental responsibility for their children. Thousands of men do it every year. But typically surrogate mothers don't use their own eggs.

I think it would be very rare for a woman to give her child to a male friend and his husband to raise but yes, I guess that's a possibility.

Lovelyricepudding · 31/12/2021 20:43

Well you can't prevent a parent from giving up all parental responsibility for their children. Thousands of men do it every year.

They don't though. They rather just walk away which is different (I mean legal rather than practical). To actually give up parental responsibility you would have to hand a child over to the care system or allow the child to be adopted (eg by the mother's new partner).

Clymene · 31/12/2021 20:53

@Lovelyricepudding

Well you can't prevent a parent from giving up all parental responsibility for their children. Thousands of men do it every year.

They don't though. They rather just walk away which is different (I mean legal rather than practical). To actually give up parental responsibility you would have to hand a child over to the care system or allow the child to be adopted (eg by the mother's new partner).

Yes but presumably that's what @Runningupthecurtains is suggesting rather than changing birth certificates. Because that's not legal in the U.K.
PleasantBirthday · 01/01/2022 10:47

Obviously on the feminist boards the majority of posters hold extreme views,but that’s ok because that’s the same as many emotive subjects

How have we come to the point where being anti using women as manufacturers of saleable babies is the extreme view?

Helleofabore · 01/01/2022 10:48

How have we come to the point where being anti using women as manufacturers of saleable babies is the extreme view?

‘Be kind’.

That is how.

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2022 11:05

@Lovelyricepudding

Well you can't prevent a parent from giving up all parental responsibility for their children. Thousands of men do it every year.

They don't though. They rather just walk away which is different (I mean legal rather than practical). To actually give up parental responsibility you would have to hand a child over to the care system or allow the child to be adopted (eg by the mother's new partner).

Men still are financially responsible if they walk away. This is significant. They also retain the right to challenge parental responsibility of the mother (even if they do so and lose in the family courts).

Women who enter a surrogacy arrangement in this way are effectively leaving themselves vulnerable to potential financial abuse.

Unless you complete the legal side (which you cannot do without attracting questions as to why - not ideal if you are trying to hide an illegal surrogacy) the mother is still a legal part of the child's life in some way.

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2022 11:23

@PleasantBirthday

Obviously on the feminist boards the majority of posters hold extreme views,but that’s ok because that’s the same as many emotive subjects

How have we come to the point where being anti using women as manufacturers of saleable babies is the extreme view?

I find it interesting that when pro choice campaigner talk of anti abortion ideas they refer to the abuse of women being reduced to incubators. This is mainly a view of liberal politics.

Flip it and talk about surrogacy and you suddenly have a bunch of the same people tripping over themselves to support the idea of women as incubators without a shred of self critical examination.

I find the whole spectacle utterly disturbing because of the level of cognitive dissonance it involves.

Rather than understanding these 'liberal' voices being pro women you have to start questioning whats really going on.

Thats not an extreme position. Thats an observation of why there is opposition to women as incubators under one set of circumstances but hell go for your life under others and its fine to use the law to sign away women's rights (even if these are potentially vulnerable or coerced women)

Its become religious level fanatism from both ends of the scale. Neither centre women. Neither consider the harm to women and children. Neither understand the world as being somewhere which allows the state approved abuse of women and reduces them to a womb.

Its 100% about who controls reproductive rights. Its not women who are caught up in this. Its powerful lobby groups who either want babies on order or want to order babies to be born for their own political and self interest.

The women involved are just the football in the middle. To be kicked.

ThirdElephant · 01/01/2022 11:33

@PleasantBirthday

Obviously on the feminist boards the majority of posters hold extreme views,but that’s ok because that’s the same as many emotive subjects

How have we come to the point where being anti using women as manufacturers of saleable babies is the extreme view?

Go back to the early 1900s and thinking that women could comprehend enough about politics to justify having the vote could be considered an extreme view.
RedToothBrush · 01/01/2022 12:13

Human rights and abuse / exploitation of vulnerable persons really is a post war belief. Prior to that it was really seen by the middle classes as fair game.

The West then in adopting this, continued to turn a blind eye to foreign exploitation and arguably sort to expand it as workers rights domestically were expanded and made many manufacturers less competitive.

We never sort to push up standards elsewhere. Which was part of the problem.

In recent years theres been a backlash but this has been about reversing the rights of the more vulnerable domestically rather than focusing and encouraging the expansion of rights abroad.

It all comes back to who pays and who makes profit.

RedToothBrush · 01/01/2022 12:14

(both in financial and other less obvious profits)

Starcup · 01/01/2022 13:27

Go back to the early 1900s and thinking that women could comprehend enough about politics to justify having the vote could be considered an extreme view

This is exactly the type of ‘example’ that illustrates the extreme point of view. To compare it to that is nonsense.

Women were second class citizens end of. They were unable to vote on decisions that would ultimately affect them directly. Every single one of them.

In this scenario the belief by the extreme ‘feminists’ are -

‘We don’t believe ANY women under any circumstances is able to make an informed decision about the negative consequences of surrogacy.

We don’t distinguish between circumstances (ie a best friend doing it for her infertile friend or a rich couple paying)

We don’t believe women when they say they want to do it as they see it as a positive in order to help someone.

They can’t be trusted so we want to take the decision completely away from them so they can’t and don’t have a choice. We see it as immoral in every circumstances, therefore we are right’

Yeah….. great outlook. Really empowering and not at all controlling…..

FannyCann · 01/01/2022 14:42

This is a great Twitter thread that explains the issue of "junk" liberty. Surrogacy is not a liberty it is a crime.

twitter.com/caitlin_roper/status/1473205771592613892?s=21

To not understand the issue with surrogacy?
To not understand the issue with surrogacy?
To not understand the issue with surrogacy?
KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 14:52

The "altruistic" route still involves the deliberate creation of a child to give away. It's still commodification of human beings.

In the case of "altruistic" family arrangements I wonder how easy it would be to refuse?

Starcup · 01/01/2022 15:39

@KimikosNightmare

The "altruistic" route still involves the deliberate creation of a child to give away. It's still commodification of human beings.

In the case of "altruistic" family arrangements I wonder how easy it would be to refuse?

That’s your view, but as discussed several times, you view IVF as the same and many people would agree with your view on surrogacy but not IVF….

So who’s right who’s wrong…..

OhHolyJesus · 01/01/2022 15:41

In the case of "altruistic" family arrangements I wonder how easy it would be to refuse?

A sister might make the offer to her sibling and she may be 100% certain that is able to do it, having had a child or even completed her family or perhaps having never been pregnant before. She is of sound mind and thinks she can do it. The sibling accepts and all is fine, there are no problems with the pregnancy and the baby is born healthy, the sister recovers well from the birth and they all live happily. Or something somehow goes wrong. The offer itself could cause a problem in the sibling relationship, there could be difficult getting pregnant, there could be a miscarriage/s resulting in deeply emotional issues with pain and physical risks and there could even be a question over a disabled foetus, extreme morning sickness, regret, issues with a husband or partner who has to do more with existing children whilst the woman struggles physically in late pregnancy and maybe even the wish to terminate the pregnancy.

Granted, this was between friends and not between sisters but it's still relevant in terms of altruistic surrogacy. Would it be different - better or worse - if this was between sisters?

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4239144-Surrogacy-ends-in-abortion-and-ends-a-friendship

It could also be that a sibling asks their sister. She will have seen their sibling struggle with infertility for years, perhaps there was a childhood disease or condition that meant their sibling would always struggle to conceive and the sister had been waiting the question for years too. Maybe she has felt the burden of it and had it as an expectation of her and is resigned and feels she can't say no. There are numerous scenarios and each one is individual.

There is an argument to say that as commercial surrogacy is a transaction it is a simpler arrangement. Of course it would be disingenuous to say there were no emotions involved at all but once contracts are signed it could be said that the process is relatively straightforward as both parties agree on diet, having sex, kissing, breastmilk etc. This is harder to navigate in families I think.

https://www.reddit.com/r/relationshipadvice/comments/hr29qg/myysisteranddbilwonttletmeekissmyy_bf/

I've read many a story about surrogacy in families and many of them work well and all the adults are fine, the children were all too young to comment and won't know any different, whether their grandmother has given birth to them and pumped breastmilk for the first 6 months of life, or maybe their aunt is also their mother and the egg that made them came from elsewhere. I do find that, in terms of coercion, it's possible that surrogacy within families is more likely to happen. I have read about the mother of two sisters and how proud she was of the eldest daughter being so kind and I can't imagine it would be easy for that woman to say she has doubts or a change of heart. I've also heard about family surrogacy in families with a strong faith and strict cultures where the women as subservient or serve a purpose. It's very complex and no one family is exactly the same as any other so naturally a surrogacy within a family could only be compared to another on basic principles. They are not the same.

For the record, I do think surrogacy works for many many couples, the surrogate-born children may also be just fine, but as we saw with adopted children and see more with donor conceived child more recently, some are fine and others are not. It isn't about the majority. We don't say, well the majority of adopted children are fine so let's not worry about the few who do suffer genealogical bewilderment and have mental health issues as a result. We try to help them, learn from them, see how potentially problems can be avoided and even build regulatory and legal frameworks to keep them safe.

Starcup · 01/01/2022 15:43

@KimikosNightmare

The "altruistic" route still involves the deliberate creation of a child to give away. It's still commodification of human beings.

In the case of "altruistic" family arrangements I wonder how easy it would be to refuse?

When you say refuse, do you mean - Refuse to be a surrogate (if asked) or refuse to accept someone else being your surrogate?

If you mean the former (I assume you do) then I don’t think the average person would agree to being someone’s surrogate. Despite what’s portrayed in here, most people wouldn’t be willing to do it for a plethora of reasons.

KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 19:19

When you say refuse, do you mean - Refuse to be a surrogate (if asked) or refuse to accept someone else being your surrogate?

If you mean the former (I assume you do) then I don’t think the average person would agree to being someone’s surrogate. Despite what’s portrayed in here, most people wouldn’t be willing to do it for a plethora of reasons

Well, setting aside the fact you have contradicted yourself in even acknowledging that there are reasons why someone wouldn't want to be a surrogate, given you were previously arguing how wonderful it was, why do you think there are laws against forced marriages?

There are plenty of reasons why a woman would not go ahead with a forced marriage, yet that happens. It seems entirely credible that a woman faced with a family all telling her what a wonderful gift she's making would have her resistance worn down.

Oh and god only knows what "gotcha" you think you have constantly referring to my opposition to IVF. There are many posters who have explained what is wrong with surrogacy.

Starcup · 01/01/2022 19:46

@KimikosNightmare

When you say refuse, do you mean - Refuse to be a surrogate (if asked) or refuse to accept someone else being your surrogate?

If you mean the former (I assume you do) then I don’t think the average person would agree to being someone’s surrogate. Despite what’s portrayed in here, most people wouldn’t be willing to do it for a plethora of reasons

Well, setting aside the fact you have contradicted yourself in even acknowledging that there are reasons why someone wouldn't want to be a surrogate, given you were previously arguing how wonderful it was, why do you think there are laws against forced marriages?

There are plenty of reasons why a woman would not go ahead with a forced marriage, yet that happens. It seems entirely credible that a woman faced with a family all telling her what a wonderful gift she's making would have her resistance worn down.

Oh and god only knows what "gotcha" you think you have constantly referring to my opposition to IVF. There are many posters who have explained what is wrong with surrogacy.

No, you didn’t make yourself clear. People are not mind readers, especially regarding extreme views… you could mean anything!

And what the hell has forced marriage got to do with surrogacy? That happens as part of certain cultures and thousands of women are in that situation each year.

It’s not illegal and how do you prove it’s forced…..? Some people are happy with their future husbands, so where does that leave your argument? It can’t be forced if they are happy to go along with it…. Hmm

You might disagree with it, but I’d like to see you stand up in front of the thousands of people from different cultures and backgrounds and explain to them all why they are all wrong getting involved with arranged marriages….hmm]

And for someone that is big on proclaiming surrogacy isn’t isn’t the same as IVF (whilst readily admitting you disagree with both) and asking why I am not sticking only to surrogacy, but if a hypocrite to bring in to the debate a cultural norm for tens of thousands of women.

RepentMotherfucker · 01/01/2022 19:58

There's a (really really enormous) difference between arranged marriages and forced marriages.

Jesus. Hmm

Kudos to those of you still going with this...

KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 20:07

And for someone that is big on proclaiming surrogacy isn’t isn’t the same as IVF

Eh? I have said nothing of the sort. I think you are confusing me with another poster.

I'm sorry you lack the comprehension skills to understand I was referring to women who might be pressured into being a surrogate.

I mentioned forced marriage as you apparently were incapable of imagining a situation where family pressure might be brought to bear. Iused it as an example.

KimikosNightmare · 01/01/2022 20:08

And what the hell has forced marriage got to do with surrogacy? That happens as part of certain cultures and thousands of women are in that situation each year

It’s not illegal and how do you prove it’s forced…..?

Forced marriage is illegal.

Starcup · 01/01/2022 20:08

@RepentMotherfucker

There's a (really really enormous) difference between arranged marriages and forced marriages.

Jesus. Hmm

Kudos to those of you still going with this...

Jesus all you like, but good luck trying to explain your dissatisfaction to the thousands of people involved.
Starcup · 01/01/2022 20:19

@KimikosNightmare

And for someone that is big on proclaiming surrogacy isn’t isn’t the same as IVF

Eh? I have said nothing of the sort. I think you are confusing me with another poster.

I'm sorry you lack the comprehension skills to understand I was referring to women who might be pressured into being a surrogate.

I mentioned forced marriage as you apparently were incapable of imagining a situation where family pressure might be brought to bear. Iused it as an example.

Isn’t the same, in the sense you think they are separate debates, yet you disagree with both that’s why it’s relevant.

‘Forced’ marriages is a rubbish example to compare, as it’s a complex mix of cultural norms in what happens as routine, in one part of the world vs 2022 in the west.

Forced marriages will happens far far more frequently in all parts of the world and be a bigger issue than surrogacy so pointless comparing the two in this thread. It deserves its own thread at the very least.