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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

544 replies

WhiteFlagHeldAloft · 24/12/2021 16:16

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

OP posts:
User72614643 · 25/12/2021 18:28

@HaroldMeeker

Downright discourteous, I'd say. Wag your finger at the wimmins then sod off back to your pooter game....how tiresome and predictable. Still, maybe somebody will read the answers and learn something beyond "be kind".
That's me - I have learnt a lot from this thread. I identify as gender critical but can't articulate why and feel very anxious to ever have discussion due to fears of coming across bigoted. A poster said a woman cannot be defined as a feeling in a man's head and that was a real epiphany moment for me, if that makes sense.
MargaritaPie · 25/12/2021 18:30

There was also a pronoun thread just yesterday

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4434565-what-are-your-pronouns-best-response-for-a-14-yo

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/12/2021 18:36

[quote MargaritaPie]There was also a pronoun thread just yesterday

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4434565-what-are-your-pronouns-best-response-for-a-14-yo[/quote]
There was one yesterday? Hardly, Practically every thread on this board, on a daily basis.

Although hyperbole is a common issue from some.

bordermidgebite · 25/12/2021 18:45

Well of course if you are the sort of person who has been hurt by gender you might find announcing pronouns an unnecessary aggression

Twitterwhooooo · 25/12/2021 18:55

I tend to agree with those who say after years of extending 'common courtesy' eg not pointing out that transwomen are men and the like, my patience for the one-way street of this has worn thin.

It's not the affording common courtesy that many women object to - it's being gaslighted into behind as those this common courtesy is based on truth, rather than not wanting to hurt someone's feelings.

That and the fact that no-one owns their pronouns ie how other people refer to them, or how other people perceive them in their own head.

If the OP had a argument stronger than self-victimisation 'why me? What about my hurty feelz?' they'd have been back.

They appear not to have.

JellySaurus · 25/12/2021 19:05

I think we owe the OP a vote of thanks for instigating an excellent thread. Of course it would be good/polite/respectful/kind if they returned and engaged with us, but it hardly matters now.

Helleofabore · 25/12/2021 19:24

I actually also find it enlightening that all MPie can say is something about how common pronoun threads are.

That’s it?

I reckon that the regulars holding all aspects of the argument could see the manipulation attempt by OP for what it was.

And the truth be told, nearly all posters replied relatively neutrally considering. But then.. screenshot potential does that, doesn’t it. And, of course, tinsels warning.

NotTerfNorCis · 25/12/2021 20:45

Being forced to declare your own pronouns means being dragged into the ideology. People foregrounding their own pronouns by putting them in their email signature, even if they aren't themselves trans, is publicly pushing the ideology. That's why people on here object.

NotTerfNorCis · 25/12/2021 20:53

This thread has been picked up by a Twitter TRA who names themselves after this board.

twitter.com/mumsnetfemboard/status/1474711651203047426

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/12/2021 21:06

[quote NotTerfNorCis]This thread has been picked up by a Twitter TRA who names themselves after this board.

twitter.com/mumsnetfemboard/status/1474711651203047426[/quote]
WHAT?!?!?! No one could have seen that coming. NO ONE. Hmm

Waitwhat23 · 25/12/2021 21:10

As has been said a few times on these boards, the TRA's on Twitter always post screenshots. Never a link to the actual thread which would actually show the discussion.

It's bizarre how this is constantly referred to as an echo chamber by the biggest echo chamber of all. You can't edit, delete, block or 'mentioned only' here.

MrsMadderRose · 25/12/2021 21:11

But as far as I can see they just seem to be repeating and airing reasonably argued, rational points made on this thread. Oddly enough no death threats or claims that they don’t exist were made.

Shedmistress · 25/12/2021 21:13

I am shook, shook to the core by this completely unexpected development.

EricCartmansGoatee · 25/12/2021 21:16

Surely not a plop and run to gather screen shots for twitter. Goodness me, well colour me surprised 😲😉

Don't the ploppers ever get bored with this tiny hit of satisfaction. Nothing else they could be doing in their lives?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 25/12/2021 21:22

[quote NotTerfNorCis]This thread has been picked up by a Twitter TRA who names themselves after this board.

twitter.com/mumsnetfemboard/status/1474711651203047426[/quote]
I'm sure Bunbury is non-plussed.

Bunbury’s Public Service Announcement 2

The Bunbury Guide to Spotting Community Disruptors is constantly evolving.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3438714-Bunbury-s-Public-Service-Announcement-2

There are a number of posts/posters/threads that are reproduced on Twitter or Facebook to foment controversy using screen shots & flagging to either MNHQ to have threads or posters deleted. Sometimes, it’s used to approach commissioning editors with ideas for articles. It’s a tiresome tactic that we’ve had several community disruptor posters who themselves post the comments that they then highlight elsewhere as purported evidence of racism, religious intolerance, anti-men sentiments, or transphobia.

Artichokeleaves · 25/12/2021 21:22

As usual, the good faith is all on one side.

DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 25/12/2021 21:39

They do struggle with a plurality of thought and opinion, don’t they? Poor lamb Grin

Mezmer · 25/12/2021 21:41

I don’t really understand the big deal about pronouns as they only affect you when someone is talking about you when you are not there or about you as though you are not in the room.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 25/12/2021 21:49

Its the whole hive mind bollocks

Even that twitter thread says ‘mumsnet loves pronouns and always uses the right one’ (paraphrasing)

When actually all people have said on here is that they personally make an effort to use requested ones even if they know its a load of bull…courtesy in action right there

Not every poster on this board thinks the same way and youd have to be fairly fucking stupid to believe otherwise

MsGrumpytrousers · 25/12/2021 22:11

Common courtesy: responding to the hundreds of considerate and reasoned responses to a forum thread you started.

Uncommon courtesy: lying to support someone's narcissistic delusions.

HereticFanjo · 25/12/2021 22:24

I imagine the rainbow haired narcissist is too busy to respond to the eloquent, thoughtful posts typical of the biological women on these threads.

JellySaurus · 25/12/2021 22:52

[quote NotTerfNorCis]This thread has been picked up by a Twitter TRA who names themselves after this board.

twitter.com/mumsnetfemboard/status/1474711651203047426[/quote]
Excellent. Directing more traffic to here to see how feminists actually behave. More sunlight. More oxygen. Thanks, plOPper.

Goatsaregreat · 26/12/2021 00:08

Gotta love the fact that people who despise women spend so much time monitoring what's being said on here Grin

RedToothBrush · 26/12/2021 01:20

@Goatsaregreat

Gotta love the fact that people who despise women spend so much time monitoring what's being said on here Grin
This is a phrase where a gender neutral use of words isn't entirely appropriate because it hides the reality of life for women.
DdraigGoch · 26/12/2021 01:36

Many of the threads I have seen on here are people wanting to refuse to use an individual's preferred pronouns...

Usually in court when faced with their abuser/rapist who only "came out" after his arrest". So generally for those with suspect motives rather than those likely to have genuine dysphoria.

Not sure that there are many posters who would be deliberately rude to a random passer by.

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