I feel let down and insulted by the stupidity of the gender worshippers

[NonnyMouse1337]

I sometimes wish there was someone, anyone, amongst the gender worshippers with some semblance of intelligence. Even their 'best' arguments are so utterly stupid that it's sort of quite sad.

I read and listen to people who are non-believers in gender theology and they almost always come across as sharp minded, witty and capable of rational interaction. Even if I don't always agree with what's said, I can sort of see the rationale behind their points. It's how I ended up changing my mind.

Gender worshippers, on the other hand, remind me of the creationists and the 'intelligent design' types that I and many others used to debate years ago. The sheer nonsense they came up with.... And they actually expected to be taken seriously!

I mean there could be some really interesting conversations between theists and atheists - proper theologians who had genuinely insightful comments that made me appreciate a spiritual perspective, even if I ultimately didn't agree with it.

And then you had the creationists / fundamentalist types with their 'If humans evolved from monkeys how come monkeys are still around huh? Huh? Gotcha!' 🙄
They would post all sorts of articles and videos 'debunking' evolution and atheism, or 'proving' science in the Bible or Quran or whatever, and it was kind of sad at how shite the arguments were. They were all variations on the same themes. It got really boring after a while so that you stopped engaging with them, and the muppets were so thick they actually thought it was proof they had won the argument.

But at least most of the secular institutions weren't taking them seriously. Simpler times.

Just a Monday morning reflection.

I remember when I first got into this whole gender fracas, as Karen of You're Kidding, Right, calls it. It was when a friend of mine told me she thought males were women if they said so. And also, that they suffered disproportionate levels of violence because 25 trans people were killed that year in my country, the US. Even before I availed myself of the Google, I knew that I live in a country with approximately 330 million human beings. And more than guns than people. So any population that has 25 murders or lessthat's unlikely to be a large percentage. And ALSO, just because they were killed, that didn't mean they were killed BECAUSE they were trans. As you and I both know, my suspicions were correct. And that day I also knew something elsenone of those facts would change my friend's mind.

@MrsMadderRose

I know a few genderwooists who are older and intelligent. But what strikes me about them is that they are quite insecure people who have always needed a "thing" to join and be a part of, and needed praise and admiration from others. It's a bit like how intelligent people can become victims of cults. They rationalise it and think they must be right because they are intelligent and wouldn't be taken in by nonsense.

One of them in particular, a family member, has always, always sought out identities, labels , diagnoses and special communities to join. Each time it gives them some relief from their depression and low self-esteem because they "are" this new thing and can go on about it and get praise for talking about it. Then it wears off and they're looking for the next thing. It made perfect sense that in the current climate they'd end up deciding they were trans - and because it gives them relief and a sense of meaning, they will defend the ideology to the hilt, even though they can't make a rational argument for it, because otherwise it would be personal devastation for them to not have that special thing to "be" IYSWIM.

I do also ttink there's another factor at play which is the "I must be wrong about what I instinctively feel because I'm white/western middle class"" So men literally being women doesn't seem to make sense, that means you're a western white bigot who must re-educate yourself and spout the mantra for fear of being ffound out.

I have definitely seen this too. Label after label, cult after cult - then landing on genderism.

the people pushing this know perfectly well that the Maori creation myth isn't true, but they have decided to pretend that it has just as much of a claim to truth as evolution because they think it is politically expedient to do so.

They could teach it, along with Christianity’s creation myths, as our ancestors’ early attempts to understand the world. Perfectly valid and respectful. Instead, as with the genderwoo, they choose to lie to children. Gaslighting children is a disgrace.

One of them in particular, a family member, has always, always sought out identities, labels , diagnoses and special communities to join. Each time it gives them some relief from their depression and low self-esteem because they "are" this new thing and can go on about it and get praise for talking about it. Then it wears off and they're looking for the next thing.

That’s very perceptive, MrsMadderRose. Let’s hope the next thing arrives soon, and is harmless.

I think one real nub of the problem for me is that so, so many people are identifying as trans for complex reasons that are not really to do with being trans (whatever "really trans" means - I don't think there is such a thing as an innate gender identity, but I understand that some people have extreme body dysphoria/long to be the opposite sex and that SRS may be the only thing that helps them, but I think they are rare and even then can regret it).

But we've seen a huge rise in "identifying as trans" and so much of that is...

• Men with fetishes who realise they are being given carte blanche to indulge their fantasies at women's expense
• People with MH issues who are IDing as trans because it gives them attention and power, but really need MH support - I think this is the case in a lot of the alarming videos you see online of aggressive obviously male men demanding to be called ma'am etc and it's one reason I will never mock or sneer at them - I think they generally are not well and I mean that kindly
• Obviously teenagers especially girls who are being lied to that the reason they don't fit in or match a gender stereotype is because "trans", likewise gay kids, kids who are desperate for an identity/tribe, etc.
• people like celebs, influencers etc hopping on bandwagons for publicity and likes, and influencing others to do so.
• obviously, predators and criminals who stand to benefit in whatever way, like getting access to women and children.

It wouldn't matter it was just a fad/trend and was about personal beliefs. The problems arise because it's being taken seriously and being acted on in law, policy and medicine in ways that harm women, kids and those who really need other kinds of support.

But what is TOTALLY insane and causing so many problems, is that this is so obvious and yet genderists and allies insist that anyone who says they are trans is trans and must be treated as what they say they are.

I simply do not understand why that is. Surely if you are a trans activist and want the best for trans people, you would rather save the resources for those who really need them, and you would be opposed to self-ID as it means no one is safe, including trans people themselves, from predators who exploit it. Surely you wouldn't want to your movement to be associated with harming children who are likely to change their minds, so you would want them to take their time to be really sure and not have treatment as minors.

I do not get how anyone can look at the rising figures and the situations involved and really think "oh yes those are all genuine trans people" and governments, institutions etc are going along with that. How can they not see that not being allowed to question a person's "transness" is a total disaster?

@Whatsnewpussyhat

the people promoting this stuff at a policy level don't, I think, believe it. They do it because they fear the consequences if they don't

Or because of the power trip or because it benefits men.
The other reason for many will be financial gain because of pushing genderbread training etc the trans train is a massive money maker.

I think there is a huge disconnect in thinking. People think you must say 'TWAW' and all the other mantras to be kind, and fail to see the consequences of those slogans.

I suppose it depends on whether you pay attention to cognitive dissonance and ask questions, or whether your loyalty to 'right think' over rides that. A large part of the narrative includes telling people that asking questions is wrong. Debate is wrong. 'Don't debate our existence' is the line. This is nonsense, of course, nobody is debating a person's existence. But it seems to work effectively as a thought-stopping cliche, among others.

I agree with everything you've said mrsmadderrose.

I'm also really curious when self-identified-as-progressive people are so quick to celebrate and affirm young people identifying as trans. Almost every back story I read written by an adult trans person details horrific sexism and homophobia somewhere in their upbringing. Whilst I obviously disagree with the ideology, it is possible to see how their decisions made sense to them. So when "progressive" people champion and affirm young trans people, I want to ask "are you responsible for the sexism in your young person's life? Or the homophobia? Or both?!"

I just doesn't make logical sense! I suffer from a degree of ptsd and am passionate about the world having a greater understanding of this and believe I deserve respect and a meaningful life. But that doesn't entail ensuring younger generations have the same experience I did, to ensure they too will have ptsd and come and join my ptsd community to help me fight for my rights. If anything, my ptsd is intensified, not relieved, by knowing the same shit does still happen to women.

Almost every back story I read written by an adult trans person details horrific sexism and homophobia somewhere in their upbringing.

Yes - and very often, sexual abuse, which can be a massive factor in hating your body or feeling a need to dissociate from it.

@MrsMadderRose

I think one real nub of the problem for me is that so, so many people are identifying as trans for complex reasons that are not really to do with being trans (whatever "really trans" means - I don't think there is such a thing as an innate gender identity, but I understand that some people have extreme body dysphoria/long to be the opposite sex and that SRS may be the only thing that helps them, but I think they are rare and even then can regret it).

But we've seen a huge rise in "identifying as trans" and so much of that is...

• Men with fetishes who realise they are being given carte blanche to indulge their fantasies at women's expense
• People with MH issues who are IDing as trans because it gives them attention and power, but really need MH support - I think this is the case in a lot of the alarming videos you see online of aggressive obviously male men demanding to be called ma'am etc and it's one reason I will never mock or sneer at them - I think they generally are not well and I mean that kindly
• Obviously teenagers especially girls who are being lied to that the reason they don't fit in or match a gender stereotype is because "trans", likewise gay kids, kids who are desperate for an identity/tribe, etc.
• people like celebs, influencers etc hopping on bandwagons for publicity and likes, and influencing others to do so.
• obviously, predators and criminals who stand to benefit in whatever way, like getting access to women and children.

It wouldn't matter it was just a fad/trend and was about personal beliefs. The problems arise because it's being taken seriously and being acted on in law, policy and medicine in ways that harm women, kids and those who really need other kinds of support.

But what is TOTALLY insane and causing so many problems, is that this is so obvious and yet genderists and allies insist that anyone who says they are trans is trans and must be treated as what they say they are.

I simply do not understand why that is. Surely if you are a trans activist and want the best for trans people, you would rather save the resources for those who really need them, and you would be opposed to self-ID as it means no one is safe, including trans people themselves, from predators who exploit it. Surely you wouldn't want to your movement to be associated with harming children who are likely to change their minds, so you would want them to take their time to be really sure and not have treatment as minors.

I do not get how anyone can look at the rising figures and the situations involved and really think "oh yes those are all genuine trans people" and governments, institutions etc are going along with that. How can they not see that not being allowed to question a person's "transness" is a total disaster?

You have articulated what I feel to be true too, @MrsMadderRose. And, like you, I'm astounded by the swiftness of all of this being legally and officially enacted.

@EdgeOfACoin

But smart people can believe irrational things if they have powerful motivators to do so.

I read the book The Intelligence Trap after seeing it recommended on these boards. It was a really interesting read and delved into the reasons why otherwise intelligent people could believe utterly daft things. (Eg Arthur Conan Doyle being easily deceived by various con artist tricks, despite his having written the Sherlock Holmes books.)

One trap is believing that because you have previously been right in relation to Issue A, you will also be right in relation to Issue B.

Another trap is thinking that if you need to perform mental gymnastics in order to make a theory work, those mental gymnastics are a sign of your intelligence. You are therefore consider yourself more intelligent than the people who think you are wrong, because those people are not clever enough to understand your mental gymnastics.

There are some other traps discussed.

The book makes the point that nobody is immune to falling into these traps.

It's a good book. I need to reread it, actually.

Reminds me of that wonderful Orwell quote: “There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.”

In the end it's about belief.

None of it makes sense, in fact it's a set of beliefs that even contradict each other.

The beliefs and rationales for them vary constantly.
Often when there's too much pushback against the existing ones. Eg few months back people could change sex, now most say no can't change sex.

The rationales change often, generally as the previous one is no longer viable.
Eg. It never happens, it rarely happens but that's not a big deal against all other bad things that happen, by definition it's impossible for a trans person to do that etc.
Obvious truths are totally ignored in favour of belief in an invisible essence, a total belief in the cause.

The outcome is all that matters and everything else is window dressing.

I sympathise, NonnyMouse. We’ve got more interesting, less energy-sapping things to do than argue with this nonsense. But it has to be countered. One day this will die out, and all those ‘allies’ will quietly forget they had anything to do with it.

Interesting point. There are actually many gender disbelievers amongst Christians.

This video gives a lucid account of the TRA position:

Have to admit I haven't got through all of it. Hard to stomach when they're claiming feminists give TRAs as much abuse as TRAs give feminists. Um, no. Calling someone an idiot is not in the same league as wishing death on them, posing with a baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire, physically trying to stop their meetings taking place, or violently assaulting them.

1 minute in and they're pitting 'trans rights' against 'gender critical'. Taht's a false dichotomy right from the start. But okay.

Thanks, NotTerf, I will try to watch. Already finding the eyebrow work slightly irritating ...

• sorry - 'trans community' against 'gc'. I mean, there are members of the former who hold 'gc' views.

Oh, now she's telling me 'cis' is not something to take offense at. Okey dokey. So she gets to tell me what I find offensive? I presume I also get to tell her what she is allowed to find offensive?

FFS, 1.34. I don't think I can do anymore. Not on an empty stomach, anyway.

Yes it's very much: we get to tell you what you are ('cis') but you have to accept what we tell you we are.

The patronising and assumptions are outrageous. All cloaked in a bullshit veneer of 'let's explain this complicated bullshit to people who just can't grasp how clever we are'.

*patronising tone

Their whole argument rests on gender identity being real and potentially separate to physical sex. That means social and cultural stereotypes about how the sexes should behave (that's the definition of 'gender') are innate - which is profoundly unprogressive.

Also, if it's about gender identity rather than sex, why did the transman have to take hormones and (presumably) get surgery to take on a male appearance? Surely the body is irrelevant if it's all about gender, not sex?

And also, all of the people I know in RL who believe this stuff don't actually understand what it is they are defending. One friend, defending all this, made three statements that would have her hounded as transphobic, in the course of DEFENDING TWAW. Most lay followers don't really what they are following.

You see this all the time. People have just been taught to repeat the mantras - they often end up saying things that are "transphobic" because what they're saying doesn't reflect their own true beliefs or inner logic.

I think the more nonsensical the "belief" the more the holder feels virtuous for maintaining it - this is why insisting on rational discourse with true believers is unlikely to work.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

I sympathise, NonnyMouse. We’ve got more interesting, less energy-sapping things to do than argue with this nonsense. But it has to be countered. One day this will die out, and all those ‘allies’ will quietly forget they had anything to do with it.

Yes, there's so much I'd rather do with my spare time than have to deal with this nonsense, and yet it's everywhere. Mindless regurgitation of dogma and most of the time the 'allies' don't even know what they are defending.

I wonder how many of the tediously dim gender zealots preach their faith on forums that are dominated by men.... They do love lecturing women but appear to be cowards when it comes to wagging their fingers at men.

Maybe if you don't insult their beliefs, they won't insult yours. It's how most normal humans navigate socialising and conversation.