I feel let down and insulted by the stupidity of the gender worshippers

[NonnyMouse1337]

I sometimes wish there was someone, anyone, amongst the gender worshippers with some semblance of intelligence. Even their 'best' arguments are so utterly stupid that it's sort of quite sad.

I read and listen to people who are non-believers in gender theology and they almost always come across as sharp minded, witty and capable of rational interaction. Even if I don't always agree with what's said, I can sort of see the rationale behind their points. It's how I ended up changing my mind.

Gender worshippers, on the other hand, remind me of the creationists and the 'intelligent design' types that I and many others used to debate years ago. The sheer nonsense they came up with.... And they actually expected to be taken seriously!

I mean there could be some really interesting conversations between theists and atheists - proper theologians who had genuinely insightful comments that made me appreciate a spiritual perspective, even if I ultimately didn't agree with it.

And then you had the creationists / fundamentalist types with their 'If humans evolved from monkeys how come monkeys are still around huh? Huh? Gotcha!' 🙄
They would post all sorts of articles and videos 'debunking' evolution and atheism, or 'proving' science in the Bible or Quran or whatever, and it was kind of sad at how shite the arguments were. They were all variations on the same themes. It got really boring after a while so that you stopped engaging with them, and the muppets were so thick they actually thought it was proof they had won the argument.

But at least most of the secular institutions weren't taking them seriously. Simpler times.

Just a Monday morning reflection.

I've spent too long looking for rational answers to this. I am now realising that there is none.

Great thread.

There isnt anything about genderism that doesnt annoy me. The lies. The group think. The pretense at individuality and non conformity while they attack anyone who doesnt join the group and conform.

@brokendark

Well, long before this I always believed that humans were a predominantly driven by instincts and emotions. Its why I had no truck with humanists who believe we are a rational species heading, eschatologically, to a better future.

I feel quite vindicated that the humanists have proved my point by adopting all this irrational nonsense to satisfy their tribal instincts

I would say that people who believe all this are not stupid. I agree that the beliefs are irrational, anti-reality and utterly incoherent. But smart people can believe irrational things if they have powerful motivators to do so. In this case, their motivators are tribal allegiance ( I am part of this good group, this good group thinks this so I do too, because I am good and part of this group ) and fear of social ostracisation by your group.

And also, all of the people I know in RL who believe this stuff don't actually understand what it is they are defending. One friend, defending all this, made three statements that would have her hounded as transphobic, in the course of DEFENDING TWAW. Most lay followers don't really what they are following.

I see Steve Pinker has a new book out on rationality in humans, which may be interesting. I found him a fabulous linguist, but dreadful in 'Blank Slate', guilty of various failures in logic and reasoning himself.

[quote RoyalCorgi]**@RoyalCorgi, that has more to do with politics than suspension of belief in science.

That's very true. This is exactly the point that Liddle made in his column yesterday - the people pushing this know perfectly well that the Maori creation myth isn't true, but they have decided to pretend that it has just as much of a claim to truth as evolution because they think it is politically expedient to do so.

This is the same with the gender woo. While there are people who believe in idiotic stuff like inner gender identity, sex is a spectrum, 500 genders etc and so on, the people promoting this stuff at a policy level don't, I think, believe it. They do it because they fear the consequences if they don't.[/quote]
This is depressingly true. Especially when the are prepared to throw women under a bus for this political expediency, especially some of the most vulnerable women in our society - those in prisons, refuges, homeless and addiction centre.

Nothing has shown more clearly that women are not regarded as as human as men are, than this movement.

Another trap is thinking that if you need to perform mental gymnastics in order to make a theory work, those mental gymnastics are a sign of your intelligence. You are therefore consider yourself more intelligent than the people who think you are wrong, because those people are not clever enough to understand your mental gymnastics.

That's a really interesting perspective because it's so different from my usual approach. The way I tend to realise if I'm wrong about something is if I find myself having to engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify it to myself. That's when I know I'm not being honest with myself.
Something for me to think about.... 🤔

@EricCartmansUnderpants

I've spent too long looking for rational answers to this. I am now realising that there is none.

Great thread.

I agree with you. I've had to get over my own cognitive dissonance in this respect: that surely there must be a point to all of this given the vehemence with which the assertions are made and the lengths to which people will go to promote them and silence their critics.

Just to confirm I've just had a baby so am fairly sleep deprived and thought this was a thread bashing those who believe there ARE genders. It's triggering me lately, possibly because I'M A WOMAN with FEMALE HORMONES

It’s only a thread bashing those who cannot argue their point coherently. I’m sure whatever point of view you have, if you argue it well, clearly and rationally you will at the least be listened to! Although by no means agreed with.

The whole genderist thing which has popped up in the last few years has made me really humble. I used to smuggly debate creationists and evangelical Christians online, and I thought they were stupid. I know see that anyone, no matter how intelligent or educated, can fall victim to utterly irrational thought processes. It could happen to me. I used to have faith that if you led people through the irrationalities of a belief they would work out the truth for themselves . Well, they have to want to be led and see it first!

For me an interesting question is why genderism has become this big hit secular religion. Why are politicians, lawyers, scientists, doctors, so in thrall to it? Why is it so popular to maintain that males can literally become females by virtue of a thought? That is what puzzles me. I don’t see what they get out of it. The most I can summon up is they really do think this is the next giant civil rights battle, the right side of history, the side of the angels, and so simply have to support this poor minority no matter what. But you can support trans people without literally thinking they are exactly the same as females and need to take sex based rights. It’s a puzzle to me.

Can I just say how much I love MN for threads like this? So many interesting points of view and posters. A lot to think about.

For me an interesting question is why genderism has become this big hit secular religion. Why are politicians, lawyers, scientists, doctors, so in thrall to it? Why is it so popular to maintain that males can literally become females by virtue of a thought? That is what puzzles me. I don’t see what they get out of it. The most I can summon up is they really do think this is the next giant civil rights battle, the right side of history, the side of the angels, and so simply have to support this poor minority no matter what. But you can support trans people without literally thinking they are exactly the same as females and need to take sex based rights. It’s a puzzle to me

Movements cannot take hold unless they are tapping into existing values and beliefs. This movement has taken hold as it taps into deeply held, for many unconscious ideas, about the inferior value of women. Women's primary is to support others - our rights are only upheld where they do not conflict with anyone else's.

Movements cannot take hold unless they are tapping into existing values and beliefs. This movement has taken hold as it taps into deeply held, for many unconscious ideas, about the inferior value of women. Women's primary is to support others - our rights are only upheld where they do not conflict with anyone else's.

I think you're right.

@MoonlightApple

It’s only a thread bashing those who cannot argue their point coherently. I’m sure whatever point of view you have, if you argue it well, clearly and rationally you will at the least be listened to! Although by no means agreed with.

Yes. And FFS disagreement is NOT phobia. (just a mini rant...)

I've had a comment deleted. I don't know why because I can't remember what I said. I'm fairly sure it was entirely sensible and moderate, though.

However, Mumsnet seems to think that one should attempt a middle path between sensible, normal people on the one hand and completely fucking insane on the other.

Oh, I remember. I said I particularly disliked the DARVO element of trans activists and the way they accused us of all the things (violence etc) that they engage in themselves. I expect this will go soon too.

More than that @Weebison. The idea of 'passing' is a product of prejudice. I remember how personal ads for men seeking men used to say 'straight-acting', even into the early 90s (the last time I read personal ads in a printed magazine, whenever I've looked since then I've used filtered online sites and don't have that glimpse of other lives). Surely that has stopped now? Do men still talk about 'acting straight'?

So yes, absolutely, of course pointing and laughing at males who present in a femme way (and females who present as delicate looking men) should stop. And there's a fair bit of it on MN. If the males in question weren't aiming to 'pass as women' in women's spaces, but instead were being proactively themselves - that's when liberation will come.

The pretense at individuality and non conformity while they attack anyone who doesnt join the group and conform.
Oh my word, so much this. I’ve felt grumpy about conformity-dressed-up-as-non-conformity since my teens (not gender related but music, dress sense etc) and it is so much a part of this issue for teens now.

Absolutely going to read the intelligence trap too, thank you to the poster who mentioned that - fascinated by the mental gymnastics of this.

@MrsMadderRose

I know a few genderwooists who are older and intelligent. But what strikes me about them is that they are quite insecure people who have always needed a "thing" to join and be a part of, and needed praise and admiration from others. It's a bit like how intelligent people can become victims of cults. They rationalise it and think they must be right because they are intelligent and wouldn't be taken in by nonsense.

One of them in particular, a family member, has always, always sought out identities, labels , diagnoses and special communities to join. Each time it gives them some relief from their depression and low self-esteem because they "are" this new thing and can go on about it and get praise for talking about it. Then it wears off and they're looking for the next thing. It made perfect sense that in the current climate they'd end up deciding they were trans - and because it gives them relief and a sense of meaning, they will defend the ideology to the hilt, even though they can't make a rational argument for it, because otherwise it would be personal devastation for them to not have that special thing to "be" IYSWIM.

I do also ttink there's another factor at play which is the "I must be wrong about what I instinctively feel because I'm white/western middle class"" So men literally being women doesn't seem to make sense, that means you're a western white bigot who must re-educate yourself and spout the mantra for fear of being ffound out.

Bloody hell. This is IT. 100% it.

I want to stand up and applaud you.

(I'll satisfy myself with sending this to my feminist, gender critical 75 year old father who is recently estranged from his sister who embodies everything in this paragraph, and who he has challenged repeatedly).

davidrobson.me/the-intelligence-trap/

This book might be of interest.

'We assume that smarter people are less prone to error. But greater education and expertise can often amplify our mistakes while rendering us blind to our biases. This is the ‘intelligence trap’.'

The intelligence trap sounds interesting. Thanks for the link and suggestion.

the people promoting this stuff at a policy level don't, I think, believe it. They do it because they fear the consequences if they don't

Or because of the power trip or because it benefits men.
The other reason for many will be financial gain because of pushing genderbread training etc the trans train is a massive money maker.

'the people promoting this stuff at a policy level don't, I think, believe it. They do it because they fear the consequences if they don't'

Even those who are keenly supportive reveal that they don't believe it at all.

News outlets, plenty of charities, plenty of commentators etc.

Even when constant TWAW output.
Saying eg people who menstruate.
Pushing non stop.

When they write about eg.
Situation for female people in Afghanistan.
Expressing outrage about attacks by men on ovulators.
Talking about Uighar women in China being held in essentially prison and raped.

It's women. Girls.
Not ovulators.
Not people with vaginas.
Ever that I've seen.

That says it all. It's blatantly hypocritical.
And NONE react with anything except, usually outrage, if pointed out.
Always ignore.

I've asked a few posters on here it's always swerved or ignored.
Apart from one poster who explained that women/ girls in those circs is fine. As not exactly like many female people with internal trans identities. (Whether have the language for that feeling or not).

When I said why on earth would there be different proportions of people with trans internal IDs.

I think that was when the subject was changed.

See also-
Knowing that sexual orientation is a thing.
Knowing that you need a woman. (Not menstruator etc.) A WOMAN to make a baby (through surrogacy).

It's right there, frequently, that for the vast vast majority of really vigorous TWAW.

They either don't believe a word of it.
Or, that woman/girl means female sometimes, and includes males (and excludes a load of non binary vagina people, trans men etc) when they want.

Now words men whatever you want them to mean. That's just no problem?

But yeah it's everywhere, and it says it all.

I think it's generous to say let down by own intelligence.

Variously-

It's mostly Twitter with the blocking etc.
Just today I saw so many lies, refusal to even consider may be any point in sex> gender arguments. Misinformation and lies. Swallowed most oppressed, moral panic etc totally. Outrage cuts off brain.

Those who know a lovely transperson / trans relative and react as if personal to n lovely person.

Misogynists.

MRAs

Men who believe they are very clever and right and know better about anything to do with female women/girls than any woman or girl does.

Relating to males, knowing how other males behave to non compliance to masculine norms.
Thinking god that's really difficult and risky (risk from other males).
Need support and help.
No real thought for women/girls as in the end loads of males essentially don't see us as full people, little or no empathy, expect us to help these poor males.

Others as well.

---

The fact that female people are the biggest danger.
Not the group that are responsible for the vast vast majority of violence etc.

Women who are some combo of feminist, middle aged or older, outspoken. Other things.
Or have s very large platform, respected generally, enough wealth/or position. Etc. Hard to cow. (Jk, Martina not sure if she bowed in the end, etc).

Other sorts of women, all who say sex> gender and no matter how strong when saying anything about that.

Are the devil. Witches. Evil. Powerful. Right up to wanting mass murder...

Yeah that sounds totally likely.