I feel let down and insulted by the stupidity of the gender worshippers

[NonnyMouse1337]

I sometimes wish there was someone, anyone, amongst the gender worshippers with some semblance of intelligence. Even their 'best' arguments are so utterly stupid that it's sort of quite sad.

I read and listen to people who are non-believers in gender theology and they almost always come across as sharp minded, witty and capable of rational interaction. Even if I don't always agree with what's said, I can sort of see the rationale behind their points. It's how I ended up changing my mind.

Gender worshippers, on the other hand, remind me of the creationists and the 'intelligent design' types that I and many others used to debate years ago. The sheer nonsense they came up with.... And they actually expected to be taken seriously!

I mean there could be some really interesting conversations between theists and atheists - proper theologians who had genuinely insightful comments that made me appreciate a spiritual perspective, even if I ultimately didn't agree with it.

And then you had the creationists / fundamentalist types with their 'If humans evolved from monkeys how come monkeys are still around huh? Huh? Gotcha!' 🙄
They would post all sorts of articles and videos 'debunking' evolution and atheism, or 'proving' science in the Bible or Quran or whatever, and it was kind of sad at how shite the arguments were. They were all variations on the same themes. It got really boring after a while so that you stopped engaging with them, and the muppets were so thick they actually thought it was proof they had won the argument.

But at least most of the secular institutions weren't taking them seriously. Simpler times.

Just a Monday morning reflection.

@StandUpStraight

I agree with you entirely. They come from one of two camps - the intellectually dishonest, and the hard of thinking.

As amply illustrated by @Ahblahblablah's posts, which show that it is possible to be both intellectually dishonest and hard of thinking.

I would say though that gender ideology is the very opposite of humanism. True humanism never believed humans were only rational; but that rational thought and human spiritual selves were intertwined - most humanistic traditions were also fully spiritual and religious as well. Humanism was human-centred.

The new gender ideology is anti-humanist, anti-Enlightenment and anti-humanisic liberalism. There’s a reason why its philosophical adherents align themselves with what’s called in theoretical circles “posthumanism” and “transhumanism”! It’s because they specifically see themselves as anti-humanistic.

"I would say that people who believe all this are not stupid. I agree that the beliefs are irrational, anti-reality and utterly incoherent. But smart people can believe irrational things if they have powerful motivators to do so. In this case, their motivators are tribal allegiance ( I am part of this good group, this good group thinks this so I do too, because I am good and part of this group ) and fear of social ostracisation by your group."
My daughter, intelligent woman in her forties, works in the arts. Knows what's going on in terms of disadvantage to women, but knows a few trans people, so fingers in ears and singing "la la la". So maddening, especially when I'm trying to resist the nonsense for the good of her and other younger women and girls....

I sometimes wish there was someone, anyone, amongst the gender worshippers with some semblance of intelligence. Even their 'best' arguments are so utterly stupid that it's sort of quite sad.

I admire Richard Ma enormously. Ma is charming, smart and funny. He's also an excellent doctor, passionate about sexual health, and a superb researcher. He has intelligence in abundance. I was very sorry to see him be so dismissive of Margaret McCartney in public.

I believe he is profoundly mistaken because he does not grasp the full range of implications for women. I don't attribute malice, misogyny or other detrimental characteristics to him.

I know a few genderwooists who are older and intelligent. But what strikes me about them is that they are quite insecure people who have always needed a "thing" to join and be a part of, and needed praise and admiration from others. It's a bit like how intelligent people can become victims of cults. They rationalise it and think they must be right because they are intelligent and wouldn't be taken in by nonsense.

One of them in particular, a family member, has always, always sought out identities, labels , diagnoses and special communities to join. Each time it gives them some relief from their depression and low self-esteem because they "are" this new thing and can go on about it and get praise for talking about it. Then it wears off and they're looking for the next thing. It made perfect sense that in the current climate they'd end up deciding they were trans - and because it gives them relief and a sense of meaning, they will defend the ideology to the hilt, even though they can't make a rational argument for it, because otherwise it would be personal devastation for them to not have that special thing to "be" IYSWIM.

I do also ttink there's another factor at play which is the "I must be wrong about what I instinctively feel because I'm white/western middle class"" So men literally being women doesn't seem to make sense, that means you're a western white bigot who must re-educate yourself and spout the mantra for fear of being ffound out.

@NonnyMouse1337

I sometimes wish there was someone, anyone, amongst the gender worshippers with some semblance of intelligence. Even their 'best' arguments are so utterly stupid that it's sort of quite sad.

I read and listen to people who are non-believers in gender theology and they almost always come across as sharp minded, witty and capable of rational interaction. Even if I don't always agree with what's said, I can sort of see the rationale behind their points. It's how I ended up changing my mind.

Gender worshippers, on the other hand, remind me of the creationists and the 'intelligent design' types that I and many others used to debate years ago. The sheer nonsense they came up with.... And they actually expected to be taken seriously!

I mean there could be some really interesting conversations between theists and atheists - proper theologians who had genuinely insightful comments that made me appreciate a spiritual perspective, even if I ultimately didn't agree with it.

And then you had the creationists / fundamentalist types with their 'If humans evolved from monkeys how come monkeys are still around huh? Huh? Gotcha!' 🙄
They would post all sorts of articles and videos 'debunking' evolution and atheism, or 'proving' science in the Bible or Quran or whatever, and it was kind of sad at how shite the arguments were. They were all variations on the same themes. It got really boring after a while so that you stopped engaging with them, and the muppets were so thick they actually thought it was proof they had won the argument.

But at least most of the secular institutions weren't taking them seriously. Simpler times.

Just a Monday morning reflection.

You want to throw in some mainstream "gender worshippers" examples?

I know a few genderwooists who are older and intelligent. But what strikes me about them is that they are quite insecure people who have always needed a "thing" to join and be a part of, and needed praise and admiration from others.

I know a distressing number of scientists and medics who would disagree with me on the general issue of sex and gender as understood on MN. Very few of them match your description. In the cast of too many, they are trapped by #BeKind and far too many have been like Richard Dawkins, they've not read into it and they have no comprehension of the wider issues involved.

tbh, some of them are too long in a profession where altruism is demanded of them that a number of them would be incapable of understanding that so many women are tired of being service humans to others.

Yes, that probably would be the quickest way to get the thread deleted, disgusted, I quite agree.

Let’s not do that.

Agree embarrassing it's not the only motivator.

@Ahblahblablah

Grow up

Or do you not believe in that either 😂😂😂

I am both impressed and persuaded.

Wow, that speech!

But smart people can believe irrational things if they have powerful motivators to do so.

I read the book The Intelligence Trap after seeing it recommended on these boards. It was a really interesting read and delved into the reasons why otherwise intelligent people could believe utterly daft things. (Eg Arthur Conan Doyle being easily deceived by various con artist tricks, despite his having written the Sherlock Holmes books.)

One trap is believing that because you have previously been right in relation to Issue A, you will also be right in relation to Issue B.

Another trap is thinking that if you need to perform mental gymnastics in order to make a theory work, those mental gymnastics are a sign of your intelligence. You are therefore consider yourself more intelligent than the people who think you are wrong, because those people are not clever enough to understand your mental gymnastics.

There are some other traps discussed.

The book makes the point that nobody is immune to falling into these traps.

It's a good book. I need to reread it, actually.

The other thing that reminds me of arguing with fundamentalist Christians, is the conflation of not sharing someone's beliefs with meaning them actual physical harm.

"You're persecuting us and want to KILL US ALL!!!" ...nah mate I just suggested your religious beliefs shouldn't be enshrined in the law of the land. Not quite the same thing.

Maybe it's projection; there has been the odd occasion of religious violence in the past I think, and clearly with all the 'punch a terf' rhetoric out there, there's a lot of males with seething barely contained rage towards women.

Thanks for that edge, will look for it.

Is Ahblahblablah here to tell what genderfuck is? Since those interviewed on the Nolan podcasts didn’t quite get it.

I agree with you, OP, but if these people had a glimmer of intelligence, they wouldn't believe in the gender woo in the first place. It's like expecting signs of intelligence from people who believe the earth is flat, or that Bill Gates is trying to control your mind through vaccines, or indeed that God created the earth in seven days and there were no such thing as dinosaurs.

The striking thing is that most sensible people laugh at the flat earthers, the Bill Gates mind-controllers and the creationists. But so very many of them are going along with the gender woo.

Having said that, in New Zealand, apparently schools are now having to treat the Maori creation story with the same weight as the theory of evolution:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10301209/New-Zealand-academic-got-CANCELLED-condemned-plan-teach-Maori-beliefs-science-classes.html

@Helleofabore

Is Ahblahblablah here to tell what genderfuck is? Since those interviewed on the Nolan podcasts didn’t quite get it.

I always hear/see that as Taserface for anyone else who say GOTG2.

Another trap is thinking that if you need to perform mental gymnastics in order to make a theory work, those mental gymnastics are a sign of your intelligence. You are therefore consider yourself more intelligent than the people who think you are wrong, because those people are not clever enough to understand your mental gymnastics.

That's very astute. I find with a lot of the gender woo people, they think they are more sophisticated than the rest of us. Only dullards believe that there are two sexes. The really smart people understand that there are 100 sexes! Or that sex is on a spectrum! Or insert other shit as appropriate.

@MrsMadderRose, that was a perceptive post. Thank you for writing that.

@EdgeOfACoin, I'll look out for that book. I've got a long-haul flight coming up (fingers crossed) and it sounds just the thing to pass the time as I don't like headphones and prefer to read.

@Ahblahblablah

Grow up

Or do you not believe in that either 😂😂😂

That’s an amazing example of projection. On so many levels!

Thank you, I enjoyed it.

@RoyalCorgi, that has more to do with politics than suspension of belief in science.

That was in response to teaching Maori creation myths alongside scientific theory.

Another trap is thinking that if you need to perform mental gymnastics in order to make a theory work, those mental gymnastics are a sign of your intelligence. You are therefore consider yourself more intelligent than the people who think you are wrong

Oh, this is so well put. I’ve noticed this forever but not quite been able to verbalise it. It’s something akin to cognitive dissonance, but much more specific. I think of it as the Judith Butler effect.

@RoyalCorgi, that has more to do with politics than suspension of belief in science.

That's very true. This is exactly the point that Liddle made in his column yesterday - the people pushing this know perfectly well that the Maori creation myth isn't true, but they have decided to pretend that it has just as much of a claim to truth as evolution because they think it is politically expedient to do so.

This is the same with the gender woo. While there are people who believe in idiotic stuff like inner gender identity, sex is a spectrum, 500 genders etc and so on, the people promoting this stuff at a policy level don't, I think, believe it. They do it because they fear the consequences if they don't.

Oh, this is so well put. I’ve noticed this forever but not quite been able to verbalise it. It’s something akin to cognitive dissonance, but much more specific. I think of it as the Judith Butler effect.

Absolutely. What's remarkable about Butler is that when she is pinned down in an interview, the answers she gives are remarkably banal and at the level of your common or garden Twitter activist TRA. When she's not allowed to obfuscate, the stuff she believes is just, well, stupid. Very much the wizard behind the curtain.