Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Great discussion.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

Gender wars: two opposing perspectives on the trans and women’s rights debate
A lawyer and philosopher respond to seven propositions—ranging from single-sex spaces to puberty blockers for children

Thank you for link.

The predictability and triteness of one of those sets of responses has neither contributed to the discussion for those who are knowledgeable and it won't be informative for those who are not. And that's despite the over-use of the examples of public loos and tired tropes about chromosome tests or genital inspections.

The poverty of imagination and lack of respect for the importance of this issue and its outcomes for the current and future wellbeing of women is predictable.

At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female, I sound male as I have done little to alter my speaking voice, as it is something I rely on in my job as a barrister.

Robin highlighting how sex based differences give males advantage while generally arguing that sex isn’t as important as gender. I’m always amazed this person is a barrister.

Yes that quote stood out to me too.

So is Robin saying that a male voice adds gravitas and is more likely to be listened to? So benefits from male privilege here and not prepared to give this up?

Robin highlighting how sex based differences give males advantage while generally arguing that sex isn’t as important as gender. I’m always amazed this person is a barrister.

Taking the advantages of both sexes. The male voice which helps in male career progression, and unfettered access to women's sex segregated spaces. I would have more sympathy for men identifying as woman if they actually made an effort to take on all of the characteristics of females. But holding on to male voices and male genitalia doesn't sound commited to being a woman at all. Just seeking advantage.

@Campervan69

So is Robin saying that a male voice adds gravitas and is more likely to be listened to? So benefits from male privilege here and not prepared to give this up?

Robin says TWAW, but also thinks it's perfectly OK to use the aspects of maleness which Robin retains when Robin can use those to Robin's advantage. Thus showing that TWANW.

“Most of us pass by you unnoticed.” Really, no.

Robin is the one who can't help sounding male even in print...

@SomepeopleareTERFSgetoverit

“Most of us pass by you unnoticed.” Really, no.

It always strikes me as a bit odd when people say this. I don't know whether the validation they have received from the #bekind gang has made them really believe other people think they pass. Not that I care if they pass or not particularly. People can't help what they look like. It's how they behave that counts. But it's always the ones where it's blindingly obvious who say this.

Haven't read it yet but noted Robin White on Twitter trying to rubbish the feature and accuse Stock of untruths. The same kind of deflection that came from India Willoughby the other day after a discussion -and positive Tweets about the experience from Stock - as well.

Why bother with any of this is if they're only going to resort back to bad faith whinging to the TRA gallery after. One step forward, two steps back and all that.

The piece was commissioned by Sonia Sodha and Alan Rusbridger said interest in it crashed the Prospect website for a while.

Robins probably embarrassed about it. I would be too if I'd been caught out saying those things.

That is an excellent piece and I hope it is widely read. I think RMW deserves credit for stepping out from behind "no debate" and letting their voice be heard. It is so valuable to see both viewpoints laid out so clearly without any of the "noise" that often accompanies these discussions.

So can we accuse Robin of untruths here? For example puberty blockers are a “pause”? Robin knows full well that all children progress onto wrong sex hormones because Robin has been told that directly here.

'female diaspora'? I assume RMW knows what the word 'diaspora' means; how on Earth is it applicable to females?

@NotBadConsidering

So can we accuse Robin of untruths here? For example puberty blockers are a “pause”? Robin knows full well that all children progress onto wrong sex hormones because Robin has been told that directly here.

Probably not so much of an accusation but a statement of fact.

@ErrolTheDragon

'female diaspora'? I assume RMW knows what the word 'diaspora' means; how on Earth is it applicable to females?

Is that a bit like when Posie 'appropriated' the word 'woman'¿

Robin says ‘[transwomen]... are accepted into the female diaspora’

Er, actually, no they’re not. Not by a long shot. (Ignoring WTF diaspora is supposed to mean in this context).

@EricCartmansUnderpants

Robins probably embarrassed about it. I would be too if I'd been caught out saying those things.

Very embarrassing.

More and more "no debate" is becoming a thing of the past.

'female diaspora' - perhaps women emerging from the confines of the home and beginning to take a full part in society? OK, I'm clutching at straws here, but....

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

That is an excellent piece and I hope it is widely read. I think RMW deserves credit for stepping out from behind "no debate" and letting their voice be heard. It is so valuable to see both viewpoints laid out so clearly without any of the "noise" that often accompanies these discussions.

Yes, I agree. Disappointed now to read here that she's since decided to distance herself from it on Twitter.

Diaspora has been used purposefully...RMW is a lawyer and knows they are trying to break down boundaries and saying that women in their own spaces are women not in their own spaces is specifically deliberate.

It's like RMW is saying we don't belong in our own spaces and that RMW is weirdly, accepted in these spaces.

Queery Theory if I ever saw it.

I assume Robin wants to believe that Robin 'passes' - but that is very transphobic as it assumes people need to pass whereas Stonewall are very clear that gender dysphoria is not required so 'passing' is not to be lauded. (Disclaimer I don't believe any of this rubbish but if you are going by Stonewall then really everything is transphobic)

Also I have been around a lot of trans people through family connections. I will accept transmen often pass - usually they look like thin, short men. Trans women almost never pass in real life. They do online when lots of make up etc is used, clever lighting etc but in real life it's pretty obvious.

Why bother with any of this is if they're only going to resort back to bad faith whinging to the TRA gallery after. One step forward, two steps back and all that.

Possibly because status equivalence units (like advertising equivalence units) have value for an author who has already had to update a book in a fairly predictable way, shortly after publication.

Either that or the position has shifted from #NoDebate to coping with the cognitive dissonance that some people are so used to dominating a discussion or being entitled to 'winning it' that when the outcome runs counter to that, the only recourse is to complain to one's tribe and diminish the value of civic discourse.

My facial surgery (12 hours on an operating table in Belgium) did far more to allow me to fit in to my affirmed gender than my genital surgery in Thailand. The NHS will eventually pay for the second but does not pay for the first, unlike US insurance-backed healthcare which has accepted facial surgery as necessary for some trans women.

Robin showing that it really is all about superficially 'passing' as a woman.

Why should the NHS pay for some men to look more like women? The NHS is for essential healthcare, not cosmetic surgery.