Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

Great discussion.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

Gender wars: two opposing perspectives on the trans and women’s rights debate
A lawyer and philosopher respond to seven propositions—ranging from single-sex spaces to puberty blockers for children

I'm rather fascinated to see Malta held up as a role model, especially by a lawyer.

Malta, France and Ireland have self-declaration and make it work perfectly well.

Malta has some of the strictest anti-abortion laws in the world and is the only country in the European Union to prohibit abortion entirely. Even the (lifesaving!) treatment of tube removal after an ectopic pregnancy (which constitutes an indirect abortion) is only allowed on a policy of case-by-case decisions.

Generous of them, hmm?

There was some coverage in the press last year about how that policy meant there was a delay of over two days (while they waited for authorisation) before the termination for one woman's ectopic pregnancy could be carried out. It's not like time could be of the essence or anything, is it? Not like fallopian tubes can rupture.

A Maltese doctors for life group defended the policy with the very convincing rebuttal that no pregnant woman in Malta had lost her life due to an ectopic pregnancy/tubal pregnancy for the past 10 years.

To that, I say,
i) that implies that one or more died before that timeframe, and;
ii) how many lost the tube due to rupture while waiting for the procedure?
iii) how many women had to suffer, both physically and emotionally, for an unnecessary period of time while waiting for authorisation to be given?

This is the text of the legislation.

Whosoever, by any food, drink, medicine, or by violence, or by any other means whatsoever, shall cause themiscarriageof any woman with child, whether the woman be consenting or not, shall, on conviction, be liable to imprisonment for a term from 18 months to three years. [Bold mine]

The same punishment shall be awarded against any woman who shall procure her own miscarriage, or who shall have consented to the use of the means by which the miscarriage is procured. [Bold mine]

Any physician, surgeon, obstetrician, or apothecary, who shall have knowingly prescribed or administered the means whereby the miscarriage is procured, shall, on conviction, be liable to imprisonment for a term from eighteen months to four years, and to perpetual interdiction from the exercise of his profession.

Yup, that's right. Women can go to prison for having a termination.

You can read more about Malta, pinnacle of human rights, here. www.voiceforchoice.mt/abortion-law

Reading with huge interest, thanks to @WeeBisom and @foxgoosefinch in particular.

Just to say about voices. Vocal coaching is available on the NHS to people who want to be perceived as a different sex (including nonbinary voice coaching - don't know much about that). It can be incredibly successful for men and women. This should also be available for detransitioners, there's no reason why not. However, women who take testosterone will end up with physically enlarged vocal cords in a smaller sized larynx. That can be more difficult to overcome with coaching.

I found the format frustrating. There was no opportunity to challenge and explore the answers which I think is very important for a proper understanding of the issues.

@Rhannion

I found the comment about Robin’s voice interesting. Robin says that they know it wouldn’t be appropriate for Robin to answer phones at a women’s domestic violence call Centre. I found this striking as, some of you probably know , in Scotland there is a trans woman, without a GRC, presently CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre.

I assume this is because this is not something that Robin wants or is interested in doing. If it was in their sphere of wanted experiences then it might be a different story

There are a number of males who identify as trans who will agree that competing in female sports is not appropriate. Again it's usually those that have zero interest in sport as an experience in the first place.

I don't think that particular recognition from Robin is anything to do with empathy for women. Just a pick and mix approach and easy to throw out a bone here and there of something you personally won't ever pursue because it's not of interest.

Unfortunately for women there are more than enough males out there wanting to live out their personalised versions of a female experience that there are other Robins who do want that spot in the Domestic Violence call centre or do want the spot on the women's sports team.

As a collective they've got all bases covered even if individually there are some things they aren't fussed about having.

Unfortunately for women there are more than enough males out there wanting to live out their personalised versions of a female experience that there are other Robins who do want that spot in the Domestic Violence call centre or do want the spot on the women's sports team.

This is exactly it.

The using a male voice at work comment was very jarring - a bit of an own goal.

And the slipping in of the word 'diaspora' was odd - as if there are different countries containing different 'varieties' of women. Nope. One territory. All women.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]I'm rather fascinated to see Malta held up as a role model, especially by a lawyer.

Malta, France and Ireland have self-declaration and make it work perfectly well.

Malta has some of the strictest anti-abortion laws in the world and is the only country in the European Union to prohibit abortion entirely. Even the (lifesaving!) treatment of tube removal after an ectopic pregnancy (which constitutes an indirect abortion) is only allowed on a policy of case-by-case decisions.

Generous of them, hmm?

There was some coverage in the press last year about how that policy meant there was a delay of over two days (while they waited for authorisation) before the termination for one woman's ectopic pregnancy could be carried out. It's not like time could be of the essence or anything, is it? Not like fallopian tubes can rupture.

A Maltese doctors for life group defended the policy with the very convincing rebuttal that no pregnant woman in Malta had lost her life due to an ectopic pregnancy/tubal pregnancy for the past 10 years.

To that, I say,
i) that implies that one or more died before that timeframe, and;
ii) how many lost the tube due to rupture while waiting for the procedure?
iii) how many women had to suffer, both physically and emotionally, for an unnecessary period of time while waiting for authorisation to be given?

This is the text of the legislation.

Whosoever, by any food, drink, medicine, or by violence, or by any other means whatsoever, shall cause themiscarriageof any woman with child, whether the woman be consenting or not, shall, on conviction, be liable to imprisonment for a term from 18 months to three years. [Bold mine]

The same punishment shall be awarded against any woman who shall procure her own miscarriage, or who shall have consented to the use of the means by which the miscarriage is procured. [Bold mine]

Any physician, surgeon, obstetrician, or apothecary, who shall have knowingly prescribed or administered the means whereby the miscarriage is procured, shall, on conviction, be liable to imprisonment for a term from eighteen months to four years, and to perpetual interdiction from the exercise of his profession.

Yup, that's right. Women can go to prison for having a termination.

You can read more about Malta, pinnacle of human rights, here. www.voiceforchoice.mt/abortion-law[/quote]
Surely all those women should just declare themselves to be men?

I can't see anything in the legislation that talks about men with child or men procuring their own miscarriage. It would just be a necessary medical procedure like removing a tumour.

And then there is the added benefit that their statistics will continue to show that women don't suffer under this law.

In general we need to be punchier don't we? And step away from the inclination to play nice, engage in loads of nonsensical arguments.

Most people don't know any of that. If I didn't know the background I would find the apologetic multiple points confusing I think.

I think there is a time to be punchy and simplistic, but this article would not be that.

I think Stock's reflective approach is valuable precisely because she does take the time to carefully unpick genderist challenges, and shows appropriate humility. It's an approach which enables readers to change their minds, IMO. I think also if she were less bloody reasonable, the circumstances of her departure from Sussex would be less shocking.

It's true that women being socialised into lacing their beliefs and assertions with self-doubt is problematic, but I don't think declining to make statements of absolute certainty about biology when you are not a biologist is necessarily indicative of that. I don't think that's a feature of successful men we should aim to emulate. I think Stock is sufficiently assertive in her statements, here and elsewhere. I think also if she were more forthright, she might be less able to influence - because society is so intolerant of women who are too assertive - and again I recognise that's problematic but for me the opportunity to influence the reader is more immediately pressing.

Finally, format-wise, whilst I'd like to have seen an actual 'discussion' with some back and forth, I didn't think it was too long and laboured. There is a time for slogans, but policy issues deserve serious consideration and a fair airing of different perspectives.

Thank you pp for the excellent background on Malta btw!

@greenmarlin

The using a male voice at work comment was very jarring - a bit of an own goal.

And the slipping in of the word 'diaspora' was odd - as if there are different countries containing different 'varieties' of women. Nope. One territory. All women.

The use of diaspora means that women have been displaced from the home where they belong.

It is very telling. RMW doesn't think we belong in any spaces that are outside the kitchen or bedroom.

It's a good article, despite the lack of challenge to individual points.

Anyone reading it, even if they know nothing about the issue, will come away with a very good idea of how this is largely about personal ideology versus reality.

Kathleen Stock comes across as mature, reasoned, logical and very informed. As you might expect from a woman who has written a book about it.

Despite the fact that she is a woman with, presumably, skin in the game, she doesn't write from a self interested point of view at all. Her dispassionate take is easy to understand and is so rational, I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with any of it. Plus she doesn't try to obscure anything or use misleading euphemisms like 'gender affirming treatment', etc.

Robin, I feel, just comes across as self-interested with a habit of obscuring meanings which is fairly obvious.

Plus, as others have noticed, Robin has absolutely no idea how Robin, in deciding which female spaces and roles Robin should have, comes across. Self-governing, I think someone called it? It's exactly that. No part of Robin appears to think that the governance of women spaces is not Robin's to determine.

And when you don't know what you don't know, you can't mitigate what you say.

It's a very revealing article.

Robin thinks Robin looks female?

That stood out for me. Although I am sure that while Robin is allowed to say that is true we are probably not allowed to say it isn't. Because, reasons.

If I may, I'd like to discuss tubal pregnancies a little more.

For those who aren't already fully aware, perhaps because the information has never been relevant to their bodies, a tubal pregnancy happens when a fertilized egg implants (gets permanently stuck) in the fallopian tube — the passage twixt ovary and uterus — instead of completing the journey to the uterus. Approximately 2% of pregnancies are tubal pregnancies.

An ectopic pregnancy can't proceed normally. The fertilized egg can't survive, and the growing tissue may cause life-threatening bleeding, if left untreated.

You may not notice any symptoms at first. But as the fertilized egg grows in the improper place, the signs and symptoms become more noticeable.

Often, the first warning signs of an ectopic pregnancy are light vaginal bleeding and pelvic pain. If blood leaks from the fallopian tube, you may feel shoulder pain or an urge to have a bowel movement. The specific symptoms depend on where the blood collects and which nerves are irritated.

If the fertilized egg continues to grow in the fallopian tube, it can cause the tube to rupture. Heavy bleeding inside the abdomen is likely. Symptoms of this life-threatening event include extreme lightheadedness, fainting and shock.

Women should always seek emergency medical help if we have any signs or symptoms of an ectopic pregnancy, including:

Severe abdominal or pelvic pain accompanied by vaginal bleeding
Extreme lightheadedness or fainting
Shoulder pain

If untreated, tubal pregnancies can be fatal, which isn't surprising - body parts in your torso rupturing is generally bad for one's health. Googling just now told me that "bleeding from ectopic pregnancy causes 10% of all pregnancy-related deaths, and it's the leading cause of first-trimester maternal death."

But in Malta, once you have got to the hospital, and your tubal pregnancy has been spotted, a salpingectomy — the surgical removal of a fallopian tube — is subject to medical gatekeeping, and the procedure must be authorised, as discussed in my previous post. Isn't that horrendous?

But let us revisit the article in Prospect Magazine, and this segment from Robin White.

Yes. The 2004 Gender Recognition Act (GRA) provides for a medically-based, panel-assessed gender recognition process. It is almost two decades old, and means that we are falling behind other liberal western democracies. Putting the process online and reducing the fee as the government has pledged to do are all very well—except that those on low incomes were already exempt. The UK process still requires expensive medical reports and extensive data-gathering. Malta, France and Ireland have self-declaration and make it work perfectly well.

If I am parsing this right, Malta is being held up here as a liberal western democracy for not requiring any medical reports. The republic that has more stringent gatekeeping for female people requiring lifesaving operations than it does on male people wishing to access female spaces.

I think my phrasing would have been "misogynistic western republic"...

Another interesting thing to note is that here on MN, we are often accused of allying with the religious right for knowing that mammals, including humans, are male or female and cannot change sex.

What, pray tell, is Malta? It's hardly secular. As you may have guessed from its legislation, it is a very religious country. According to surveys, 90% of residents are Catholic and the official state religion (!) is Roman Catholicism! In fact, until 2011, you couldn't get divorced in Malta. You had to go abroad (divorces obtained abroad were recognised in Malta) or seek a church annulment of your marriage, in the style of Henry VIII of England. (And we should all know how frustrating he found the process of having to obtain church permission to divorce.)

But they have self-ID now?

Malta, France and Ireland have self-declaration and make it work perfectly well.

It works 'perfectly well' in Ireland, does it? Maybe for those doing the self-id it does.

@Campervan69

So is Robin saying that a male voice adds gravitas and is more likely to be listened to? So benefits from male privilege here and not prepared to give this up?

Yep. Own goal really. This is exactly why we need sex-based protections.

I'd be interested to know what the definition of 'I look female' is. Is it about clothes and make-up? or does Robin mean the physical body shape, proportions, movements? personally I think anyone can wear dresses, skirts and make-up and we don't need to say they are female. The body presentation tends, IMHO, to be a clearer marker of sex. As with all of this ideology further definitions from those wanting to open protected female spaces to natal men would be really helpful.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

If I may, I'd like to discuss tubal pregnancies a little more.

For those who aren't already fully aware, perhaps because the information has never been relevant to their bodies, a tubal pregnancy happens when a fertilized egg implants (gets permanently stuck) in the fallopian tube — the passage twixt ovary and uterus — instead of completing the journey to the uterus. Approximately 2% of pregnancies are tubal pregnancies.

An ectopic pregnancy can't proceed normally. The fertilized egg can't survive, and the growing tissue may cause life-threatening bleeding, if left untreated.

You may not notice any symptoms at first. But as the fertilized egg grows in the improper place, the signs and symptoms become more noticeable.

Often, the first warning signs of an ectopic pregnancy are light vaginal bleeding and pelvic pain. If blood leaks from the fallopian tube, you may feel shoulder pain or an urge to have a bowel movement. The specific symptoms depend on where the blood collects and which nerves are irritated.

If the fertilized egg continues to grow in the fallopian tube, it can cause the tube to rupture. Heavy bleeding inside the abdomen is likely. Symptoms of this life-threatening event include extreme lightheadedness, fainting and shock.

Women should always seek emergency medical help if we have any signs or symptoms of an ectopic pregnancy, including:

Severe abdominal or pelvic pain accompanied by vaginal bleeding
Extreme lightheadedness or fainting
Shoulder pain

If untreated, tubal pregnancies can be fatal, which isn't surprising - body parts in your torso rupturing is generally bad for one's health. Googling just now told me that "bleeding from ectopic pregnancy causes 10% of all pregnancy-related deaths, and it's the leading cause of first-trimester maternal death."

But in Malta, once you have got to the hospital, and your tubal pregnancy has been spotted, a salpingectomy — the surgical removal of a fallopian tube — is subject to medical gatekeeping, and the procedure must be authorised, as discussed in my previous post. Isn't that horrendous?

But let us revisit the article in Prospect Magazine, and this segment from Robin White.

Yes. The 2004 Gender Recognition Act (GRA) provides for a medically-based, panel-assessed gender recognition process. It is almost two decades old, and means that we are falling behind other liberal western democracies. Putting the process online and reducing the fee as the government has pledged to do are all very well—except that those on low incomes were already exempt. The UK process still requires expensive medical reports and extensive data-gathering. Malta, France and Ireland have self-declaration and make it work perfectly well.

If I am parsing this right, Malta is being held up here as a liberal western democracy for not requiring any medical reports. The republic that has more stringent gatekeeping for female people requiring lifesaving operations than it does on male people wishing to access female spaces.

I think my phrasing would have been "misogynistic western republic"...

Another interesting thing to note is that here on MN, we are often accused of allying with the religious right for knowing that mammals, including humans, are male or female and cannot change sex.

What, pray tell, is Malta? It's hardly secular. As you may have guessed from its legislation, it is a very religious country. According to surveys, 90% of residents are Catholic and the official state religion (!) is Roman Catholicism! In fact, until 2011, you couldn't get divorced in Malta. You had to go abroad (divorces obtained abroad were recognised in Malta) or seek a church annulment of your marriage, in the style of Henry VIII of England. (And we should all know how frustrating he found the process of having to obtain church permission to divorce.)

But they have self-ID now?

Malta is often held up as a beacon of forward thinking for proponents of self ID.

I doubt there's a trans activist alive who has even heard of the barbaric abortion regulations. Why would they?

If I am parsing this right, Malta is being held up here as a liberal western democracy for not requiring any medical reports. The republic that has more stringent gatekeeping for female people requiring lifesaving operations than it does on male people wishing to access female spaces.

Wow. Malta is clearly not something we would want to aspire to.

@ErrolTheDragon

Malta, France and Ireland have self-declaration and make it work perfectly well.

It works 'perfectly well' in Ireland, does it? Maybe for those doing the self-id it does.

Yes, I was surprised to see that assertion from someone who uses this board so regularly.

Robin must be the only frequent flyer to FWR who remains unaware of ongoing issues in Ireland.

Perhaps this will be useful: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4033284-Another-one-for-Irish-Feminists-this-person-holds-a-GRC-and-might-soon-be-held-in-Dochas-prison-with-women-and-childrem

@Campervan69

So is Robin saying that a male voice adds gravitas and is more likely to be listened to? So benefits from male privilege here and not prepared to give this up?

No, not what I am saying at all. Interesting that is the conclusion you jump to.

We have a number of excellent AFAB advocates in Chambers who have at least as much authority in their voice and court room presence as I have.

I spent some time working with a voice coach and exploring vocal surgery. Given the state of my vocal equipment, I couldnt raise the pitch of my voice without losing power and the surgery is too risky given how important my speaking voice is as a professional tool.

It would all have been so much easier had I been able to avoid male puberty.

RMW - what do you mean when you say the 'female disapora' exactly?

I couldnt raise the pitch of my voice without losing power

Yeah, high voices generally have less power.

If you are worried about losing power in your voice, there is a recognition of the value of that power. Male puberty, as you say, changes your voice it changes it to a more powerful tone. Whilst this is considered more valuable, it is clear that this disadvantages females, who therefore need protection from that disadvantage.

I'd recommend reading Malcolm Clark's thread on Malta and its adoption of self-ID:

twitter.com/twisterfilm/status/1422505192172425222

Robin I commend you for taking part in a discussion with Kathleen Stock. I think it's a shame you felt the need to row back on it on Twitter, nevertheless it's out there now for everyone to see and I am choosing to view this as a positive step.