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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prospect Magazine: Kathleen Stock v Robin Moira White

519 replies

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 20:06

Great discussion.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate

Gender wars: two opposing perspectives on the trans and women’s rights debate
A lawyer and philosopher respond to seven propositions—ranging from single-sex spaces to puberty blockers for children

OP posts:
aliasundercover · 09/12/2021 21:21

At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female

er ... ok ...

EricCartmansUnderpants · 09/12/2021 21:22

I don't think the NHS should pay for it.

JustSpeculation · 09/12/2021 21:25

@Shedmistress

Diaspora has been used purposefully...RMW is a lawyer and knows they are trying to break down boundaries and saying that women in their own spaces are women not in their own spaces is specifically deliberate.

It's like RMW is saying we don't belong in our own spaces and that RMW is weirdly, accepted in these spaces.

Queery Theory if I ever saw it.

So you're saying that RMW is saying that women's spaces aren't women's spaces in any real sense, but are simply spaces women have moved into as part of some great exodus? Therefore, transwomen have just as much right as women to move into them?
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 09/12/2021 21:28

So you're saying that RMW is saying

Should we make space for the possibility that diaspora is just a clumsy piece of text that meant something inside the author's head that has not been communicated successfully to the readers?

foxgoosefinch · 09/12/2021 21:41

The “diaspora” vocabulary is just trying to hitch a ride on postcolonial theory - it’s trying to make gender sound exactly like race.

Goodness knows how the diaspora metaphor works though - obviously we’re meant to think of transwomen as being the colonised and dispossessed, trodden down by the imperial might of the feminine, with “cis” women figuring as so many little empresses lording it over their subalterns.

When actually, coming from a white wealthy barrister who can afford to fly all over the globe - including to Asia - for cosmetic surgery; and also choose not to bother changing some things because they help earn lots of money, it sounds rather a stretched comparison, to say the least.

I was once on a thread here where RMW was talking about her experience of oppression in being misgendered by the concierge in an Italian hotel. Which only made me wish I could afford to go to an Italian hotel, even if I had to listen to myself being secretly insulted in Italian. I wouldn’t mind 😂

Redshoeblueshoe · 09/12/2021 21:47

Robin will be along in a minute to tell us we are all wrong
About everything
Always

Motorina · 09/12/2021 21:50

How does that work in practice? When I am at my local supermarket on a Saturday morning and need to pee, there is no good reason to exclude me from the female lavatories. At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female, I sound male as I have done little to alter my speaking voice, as it is something I rely on in my job as a barrister. I quite accept that I should not be the volunteer on the phone taking the first-contact calls at a centre dealing with domestic violence against women.

That's great, and I respect that RMW has enough self-awareness to say that.

The difficulty of self-ID is that it opens the door to people with less self-awareness, or who simply do not care about the distress they might cause, to answer those phonecalls. Or for predatory men to do so for the kicks.

The need for single sex accommodations isn't to protect vulnerable women from those who have the self-awareness and self-restraint to recognise that somewhere isn't for them. It's to protect them from those who seek to take advantage.

I accept that most transwomen are not in the latter category. The difficulty with unrestricted self-ID is how do you weed out the predators.

If there's a need to exclude some men, then the regretful conclusion is that it must be necessary to exclude all men, because the bad apples don't go around with a badge saying so.

Campervan69 · 09/12/2021 21:51

Must be annoying how well women pass as (dainty) men when men never pass as women. It's always glaringly obvious.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 09/12/2021 21:53

@Redshoeblueshoe

Robin will be along in a minute to tell us we are all wrong About everything Always
Probably not on this occasion. Robins comments were embarrassing enough I suspect. Robin never spends time defending the indefensible when it clearly can't be defended. Robin will pop up on another thread at some point to share trans 'wisdom' to the ladies.
flygirl1983 · 09/12/2021 21:53

@Redshoeblueshoe

Robin will be along in a minute to tell us we are all wrong About everything Always
I want to hear more about retaining a male speaking voice. Men being able to talk over women may be driven by sexism, but it is largely possible because men have lower and louder voices. Women who talk back to be heard are "shrill."
KaycePollard · 09/12/2021 21:53

Robin highlighting how sex based differences give males advantage while generally arguing that sex isn’t as important as gender. I’m always amazed this person is a barrister.

Or that they think they look female ...

Campervan69 · 09/12/2021 21:57

Generally I think the facial feminisation surgery is horrifically invasive and not as successful as they seem to think.

Helmetbymidnight · 09/12/2021 21:59

Robin's brilliant. I think they should speak out much more. Grin

Melroses · 09/12/2021 22:00

No - there seems to be a very small range of nose shapes.

2319inprogress · 09/12/2021 22:07

"At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female, I sound male as I have done little to alter my speaking voice, as it is something I rely on in my job as a barrister."

This also stood out for me because it's so contra to the idea that a TW might pass at all (& therefore use the women's toilets.)

Surprised to learn about the facial "feminisation" surgery though...just shows there are very great limits to what is possible.

ForbiddentoForbid · 09/12/2021 22:08

@SomepeopleareTERFSgetoverit

“Most of us pass by you unnoticed.” Really, no.

Ha! They absolutely do not. Bless.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 09/12/2021 22:09

When I am at my local supermarket on a Saturday morning and need to pee, there is no good reason to exclude me from the female lavatories.

Rmw has been told the good reasons many times, but chooses to ignore them.

Melroses · 09/12/2021 22:12

"At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female, I sound male as I have done little to alter my speaking voice, as it is something I rely on in my job as a barrister."

Just like Hayton turns his collar up and walks like a man when out at night, and Bunce doesn't hand back the pay differential.

Campervan69 · 09/12/2021 22:17

Argh its all such bs isn't it??? When men want something though, it happens and everyone just rolls over.

JustSpeculation · 09/12/2021 22:20

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

So you're saying that RMW is saying

Should we make space for the possibility that diaspora is just a clumsy piece of text that meant something inside the author's head that has not been communicated successfully to the readers?

Yes.
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 09/12/2021 22:21

Decent commentary in thread by Jane Clare Jones:

"And perhaps a greater proportion of trans people face discrimination than those with protected characteristics such as race or sex."

NO woman does not experience discrimination because of her sex.

"Demonisation of a class of people leads down a number of very dark rabbit holes, playing on a natural fear of the “other.”

Women's fears of males is not 'demonisation of the other': We're not scared of you because you are trans…

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1469055130628771840

WeeBisom · 09/12/2021 22:26

I watched a video of Robin speaking, and what they say is true: they haven't altered their voice at all. I guess what I find fascinating about this is how selective the whole thing is. It's like trans men who get upset about being called 'mother' on the birth certificate but having no problem with actually giving birth. So for Robin, facial surgery was absolutely crucial healthcare to 'fit in' with their acquired gender, but doing something about their booming, strong male sounding voice isn't considered because of their career? That doesn't generate dysphoria? I'm not trying to be horrible, or suggest that people need to alter their bodies or voices. I'm just confused at the selectiveness of dysphoria, and what makes someone feminine versus what is superfluous.

JellySaurus · 09/12/2021 22:27

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

So you're saying that RMW is saying

Should we make space for the possibility that diaspora is just a clumsy piece of text that meant something inside the author's head that has not been communicated successfully to the readers?

Pretty much like most of what goes on in discussion with TRAs, or in hearing them speak: words which have clear meanings that all of us understand appear to mean something entirely different to them. Words like 'woman' have some opaque meaning that is eg entirely in their own heads and have her to percolate through to the rest of us.
JellySaurus · 09/12/2021 22:30

"At the other end of the spectrum, while I look female, I sound male as I have done little to alter my speaking voice, as it is a male privilege I rely on in my job as a barrister."

JellySaurus · 09/12/2021 22:31

Should we also make space for the possibility that female is just a clumsy piece of text that meant something inside the author's head that has not been communicated successfully to the readers

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