FB Groups and JK

[SusannaQueen]

Ok, I'm just having a rant and I know FB groups are free to set their own rules.
I've been following a fab FB group, (Home for Peculiar Artists 2), post goes up from admin saying this is a reminder, we don't allow anything Harry Potter or JKR related, if you don't know why then educate yourself. Lots of supportive replies.
I'm on the group in my real name, so I'm not going to weigh in, but it hugely fucks me off, so many people just believing lies with no dissent allowed. Just makes me think this whole thing is insurmountable.

So there's no such thing as a woman in material reality, but transwomen are women?

You're just babbling now.

Are "stag" and "doe" socially constructed gender identities? Do you think these categories are imposed and enforced through social pressure?

"You know why - you want the labels and the pronouns, you just want it to be the ones you like, with some rules you want."

Y-yes? That's the fucking point? It's precisely about personal autonomy and self-determination.

About being able to use the labels we feel comfortable with, live and express ourselves the way we want, instead of having a rigid labels, rules, and expectations forcefully imposed on us.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Are "stag" and "doe" socially constructed gender identities? Do you think these categories are imposed and enforced through social pressure?

Yes. They are literally labels assigned by humans. Neither of these words means anything to deers.

@Wavedancer99

"You know why - you want the labels and the pronouns, you just want it to be the ones you like, with some rules you want."

Y-yes? That's the fucking point? It's precisely about personal autonomy and self-determination.

About being able to use the labels we feel comfortable with, live and express ourselves the way we want, instead of having a rigid labels, rules, and expectations forcefully imposed on us.

But you say you want self-determination and autonomy, yet are imposing those labels on everyone else. Oh the irony! 😂

Autonomy for some people, but not for others.

"a rigid labels, rules, and expectations"

a rigid set of labels, rules, and expectations

About being able to use the labels we feel comfortable with, live and express ourselves the way we want, instead of having a rigid labels, rules, and expectations forcefully imposed on us.

But you seem to think it's perfectly OK to forcefully impose your worldview on others who don't share it.

How Animal Farm

@Wavedancer99

"There are men, transmen, transwomen and women. There. Everyone gets to be represented, brave and stunning."

No, piss off with that crap.

There are women, cis and trans.
There are men, cis and trans.
And there are non-binary people.

We're not going to accept a classification that is functionally equivalent to "there are homosexual people and normal people".

In your own words... Piss off with that crap. Cis right off.

It’s like shooting fish in a barrel on here some nights but I must get to bed soon.

You still haven’t told me what makes gender identity different from national identity, wavedancer.

And if there isn’t any difference, why should I not have my birth certificate rewritten to say that I was born in Russia? Does it matter whether or not that’s true as long as I feel like I’m Russian?

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

I see similar in Harry Potter groups. I just roll my eyes and ignore (along with their insistence that Tonks MUST be Transgender as she could change her look at will...)

Just realised I’m a man today, forgot to wear a skirt.

"But you say you want self-determination and autonomy, yet are imposing those labels on everyone else. Oh the irony! 😂"

Nope, you quite literally get to define your identity yourself.

The thing is, you stick with the socially mandated "default", lash out at anyone who doesn't, and throw a fit whenever you're accurately described you with a word that simply means "not trans".

Because you being "cis" implicitly suggests being trans is something acceptable and equal to your state of being, and you can't have that.

Lashing out against the term "cis" is just a rehash of "I'm not 'heterosexual', it's called being normal!"

Yes. They are literally labels assigned by humans. Neither of these words means anything to deers.

So are you going to take a vow of silence and stop using human language?

Or is it just the words describing the material reality of sex you have a problem with? The deer don't speak English, but they know what male and female are. The stags know who they butt antlers with.

@OldCrone

About being able to use the labels we feel comfortable with, live and express ourselves the way we want, instead of having a rigid labels, rules, and expectations forcefully imposed on us.

But you seem to think it's perfectly OK to forcefully impose your worldview on others who don't share it.

Not really, we just want you to accept trans people as equal. And yes, that involves accepting trans women as women.

In the same way recognizing gay people as equal involves recognizing gay marriage as a legitimate form of marriage, no matter how matter how many times people repeat "marriage means union between man and woman".

Neither of these words means anything to deers.
You are so right.
But deer like humans come in two sexes and recognize that easily.

It isn't complicated an archaeologist can tell centuries later what sex you are, it never changes.

You can choose to live as different gender but your sex will never move.

Cis is a made up nonsense term. It's a Latin prefix which means 'on this side of' which has been co-opted (incorrectly) as an antonym for trans. Can you really not see any irony in insisting that Nope, you quite literally get to define your identity yourself while simultaneously telling us that we must refer to ourselves as 'cis'?

Anyway, thank you for your services to lurkers. I lurked on here for about a year and posts like yours were what made me realise the inconsistencies with gender ideology. You will have informed many people here, just not in the way you think..

@Wavedancer99

"But you say you want self-determination and autonomy, yet are imposing those labels on everyone else. Oh the irony! 😂"

Nope, you quite literally get to define your identity yourself.

The thing is, you stick with the socially mandated "default", lash out at anyone who doesn't, and throw a fit whenever you're accurately described you with a word that simply means "not trans".

Because you being "cis" implicitly suggests being trans is something acceptable and equal to your state of being, and you can't have that.

Lashing out against the term "cis" is just a rehash of "I'm not 'heterosexual', it's called being normal!"

Oh for flying flamingos' sake.

No, it isn't. Stop wallowing in self-pity.

Attributing identities based on what you suppose to be another person's relationship with their body and the sex role stereotypes of their culture is presumptuous.

Would you like it if you were at a work dinner and a complete stranger ordered food for you without letting you look at the menu? That would be a bit presumptuous, wouldn't it?

Well, so is all this "cis-ing".

Read this. liberationcollective.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/a-feminist-critique-of-cisgender/

Y-yes? That's the fucking point? It's precisely about personal autonomy and self-determination.

Except that you’re just using all the same labels, but moving them around a bit. If you just rearrange literally the same labels, how is that self determination? You’re still obeying exactly the same rigid labels, even as you keep saying you’re being autonomous.

It’s like saying (as you did above) that stag and doe are meaningless labels, yet just randomly assigning the same labels to whichever deer you feel like, and pretending that if the stags don’t all have penises, that penises don’t have anything to do with “stagness”. Because there is an infinitely varied spectrum between having penises and not having penises (despite the fact that there seem to be suspiciously few deer who seem to fall between deer who do, and deer who don’t.)

The labels remain the same; you are just shuffling them about and pretending that’s some kind of self-determination. If you really wanted self-determination, wouldn’t you just reject the labels…? (Except then we’d be back at the old nonbinary problem again.)

You can be a biological male who chooses to live as a woman but it isn't humane to insist that means you should have the right to services alongside females harmed by males.

If you can't see that then some of your humanity is missing.

"Cis is a made up nonsense term. It's a Latin prefix which means 'on this side of' which has been co-opted (incorrectly) as an antonym for trans."

How is it incorrect? Your gender identity (describing yourself as a "man" or "woman") is quite literally on the same side as what you were assigned, and is in alignment with the label that is socially mandated based on your physical characteristics.

"while simultaneously telling us that we must refer to ourselves as 'cis'?"

You don't have to, though? If you aren't cis, i.e. your social identity doesn't match the category you were assigned at birth (whether or not you believe it's just the word for what was "observed"), then you don't have to be cis at all.

The thing is, you want other people to act like you're something special, some great defier of gender roles, while you're staying perfectly within the confines of the socially mandated categories (and aggressively attacking those who don't stay within theirs).

Not really, we just want you to accept trans people as equal. And yes, that involves accepting trans women as women.

Except you have just said yourself that “woman” is a meaningless label. So how can we accept that labels mean everything and also at the same time that labels are meaningless?

If I say “trans women are not women, they are nonbinary”, and I think everyone is nonbinary, then why am I not accepting trans people as equal?

You’v argued in your own words that “These categories are imposed and enforced through social pressure” and that they are socially constructed and imposed. So logically by your own words, saying “trans women are women” is imposing and enforcing labels that you yourself have argued several times on this thread are meaningless.

Don’t you see all the logical incoherence and silliness about your position?

Labels are meaningless - unless I say so. You “impose binary terms” - but I “self determine” the sane binary terms (even when they are about other people). Gender is a binary but also a spectrum but it also doesn’t exist (unless we’re talking about trans people and then it does). Gender and sex are different - until I want to say they are the same.

It goes on and on and on.

Not really, we just want you to accept trans people as equal. And yes, that involves accepting trans women as women.

I'm happy to accept trans people as equal, in the sense of having equal rights with everyone else.

Accepting 'transwomen' as women is different from trans people having equal rights.

In order to be a 'transwoman' a person has to be born male. So you want me to accept that a male person is a woman. But a male person can never be a woman because humans can't change sex.

"The labels remain the same; you are just shuffling them about and pretending that’s some kind of self-determination. If you really wanted self-determination, wouldn’t you just reject the labels…?"

Everyone gets to use the labels they feel most comfortable with, and those who don't like either masculine or feminine labels can use neither.

Speaking of rejecting labels, since you want to "reject gender", why don't you refer to everyone with gender-neutral terms like "they", "person", etc.?

Almost like you're not actually "rejecting gender" but simply conflating it into sex, rebranding gender categories as "sex classes".

Oh and another one, even within the same post:

“You quite literally get to define your identity yourself” (“using the terms and labels you’re most comfortable with”, remember?) — BUT also you don’t in fact get to define yourself, I get to call you “cis” if I like and you aren’t allowed to complain.

You couldn’t even make it up, the incoherence and silliness of it all.

*Nope, you quite literally get to define your identity yourself.

The thing is, you stick with the socially mandated "default", lash out at anyone who doesn't, and throw a fit whenever you're accurately described you with a word that simply means "not trans".

Because you being "cis" implicitly suggests being trans is something acceptable and equal to your state of being, and you can't have that.*