Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

FB Groups and JK

360 replies

SusannaQueen · 05/12/2021 19:26

Ok, I'm just having a rant and I know FB groups are free to set their own rules.
I've been following a fab FB group, (Home for Peculiar Artists 2), post goes up from admin saying this is a reminder, we don't allow anything Harry Potter or JKR related, if you don't know why then educate yourself. Lots of supportive replies.
I'm on the group in my real name, so I'm not going to weigh in, but it hugely fucks me off, so many people just believing lies with no dissent allowed. Just makes me think this whole thing is insurmountable.

OP posts:
foxgoosefinch · 05/12/2021 23:44

So going back to the nonbinary thing, @Wavedancer99 - where is this identity? (It would be good if you defined the term identity for me, too.)

Is non-binary identity purely in the mind/psyche? It must be since nonbinary people do not literally have unsexed bodies, no?

Tell me, if it is just in the mind, what makes “non binary identity” different from “national identity”?

As good anti colonialists, should we be all be able to identify as African, or maybe Bangladeshi?

Why not?

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 05/12/2021 23:44

If you think 'woman' is a gender identity, what attributes would you expect someone with a gender identity of 'woman' to have?

Yes, I'm interested in this question as well. What does it mean go have a 'woman' gender identity? What might that look like?

Wavedancer99 · 05/12/2021 23:45

[quote Outlyingtrout]**@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet* I've also asked several times for @Wavedancer99* to give their definition of "woman" but predictably they don't seem able to.

Anything that actually gets to the crux of the debate, TRAs always avoid answering because it exposes their argument for what it is: nonsense.[/quote]
I'm perfectly able to, I just don't care to answer the same time-wasting question for the hundredth time.

We both know how this goes, I give you my answer, you reject it and assert how ackshually it's #SexNotGender and it never gets everywhere because we just get the usual circle of idiocy.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 05/12/2021 23:45

Correct, gender is not binary and neither is sex.

How is sex not binary? What is the third sex?

Drivingish · 05/12/2021 23:47

[quote Wavedancer99]@foxgoosefinch
Correct, gender is not binary and neither is sex.

Referring to "man" and "woman" as the "binary" identities is a colloquialism, derived from the fact that these two identies are part of the binary that you are trying to impose.[/quote]
'Man' and 'woman' are not colloquialisms, they are accurate words to describe something, same as table or air. You believe in adults, yes? And humans? And sex IS binary (in humans), there is only a male and a female sex. 'Woman' is an adult human female.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 05/12/2021 23:47

I'm perfectly able to, I just don't care to answer the same time-wasting question for the hundredth time.

It's always 'the hundredth time' of not being able to answer the question of 'what is a woman'. Always.

Despite no one ever seeing the first time!

Come on let's have it.

jellybe · 05/12/2021 23:48

[quote Wavedancer99]@foxgoosefinch
Correct, gender is not binary and neither is sex.

Referring to "man" and "woman" as the "binary" identities is a colloquialism, derived from the fact that these two identies are part of the binary that you are trying to impose.[/quote]
Oh honey, no.

I know you think you are here 'educating' all us horrible feminists but you're just making yourself look silly.

Clymene · 05/12/2021 23:48

[quote SusannaQueen]Ecclefechan tarts have raisins, lots of. The Scottish equivalent of fly pie Envy

Wavedancer99 · 05/12/2021 23:49

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

Correct, gender is not binary and neither is sex.

How is sex not binary? What is the third sex?

It's a bimodal spectrum composed of different characteristics, different chromosome combinations, etc.

Variations in sex development are in and of themselves deviations from the binary conceptions of sex.

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 05/12/2021 23:50

And the question of 'what is a woman' is not a 'time wasting question', as a woman I'm quite offended you would say that. I think it's a very important question, in fact it's probably the key question to this whole debate.

Which is why TRAs are always so reluctant to answer it.

Whitefire · 05/12/2021 23:50

Ooh squashed fly biscuits. Biscuit

Do you like them wavedancer ?

DecayedStrumpet · 05/12/2021 23:51

Thought experiment, wavedancer99

What if the words 'man' or 'woman' told us an individual's sex... and literally nothing else about them?

Would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

foxgoosefinch · 05/12/2021 23:51

Referring to "man" and "woman" as the "binary" identities is a colloquialism, derived from the fact that these two identies are part of the binary that you are trying to impose.

No, trans people are imposing the binary, aren’t they? And so are you, because you also say trans women are women, trans men are men. That’s the binary right there, isn’t it? You’ve just imposed it yourself.

If we take away the binary, as I say, then trans people are non binary. So am I, so are you. Ergo “trans” doesn’t exist.

So why can’t I say “trans women are not women, they are non binary”. That’s the logical result of not imposing the binary, isn’t it?

How do you reconcile the two then? How is it possible to say “TWAW, TMAM and NBP are NB”? You’re imposing the binary even as you pretend to validate NB people.

Suggests you either don’t really believe in trans, or you don’t really believe in non-binary. Which is it?

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 05/12/2021 23:53

It's a bimodal spectrum composed of different characteristics, different chromosome combinations, etc.

That's not an answer to 'what is the third sex'. If sex isn't binary, there must be at least third sex. What is it?

Do you accept that one sex class has, throughout history, oppressed the other sex class. And has always been able to tell who is of which sex class in order to carry out that oppression?

And has managed to do so without any of this utter guff about sex being a spectrum.

DialSquare · 05/12/2021 23:53

I love a mince pie but I can't get fruit cake out of my head for some reason.

Wavedancer99 · 05/12/2021 23:55

@DecayedStrumpet

Thought experiment, wavedancer99

What if the words 'man' or 'woman' told us an individual's sex... and literally nothing else about them?

Would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

They don't, so this is pointless. And there's absolutely no reason why we should need to constantly reference someone's sex in everyday conversations.

Making "sex class" some permanent fixed label that follows someone literally everywhere they go in literally every social interaction is assigning social importance to sex.

And assigning social importance to sex is gender.

foxgoosefinch · 05/12/2021 23:56

It's a bimodal spectrum composed of different characteristics, different chromosome combinations, etc. Variations in sex development are in and of themselves deviations from the binary conceptions of sex.

AAAAAND yet again:

It is not a “bimodal spectrum”.
Discrete variations are not a spectrum.
Otherwise there would be an infinite number of positions possible between male and female;
Except there are mathematically only a limited number of sex chromosome and SRY combinations.
A few rare outlying positions (less than 26) is not a spectrum. It is a set of additional discrete positions, not a continuous variation.

Outlyingtrout · 05/12/2021 23:58

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I'm perfectly able to, I just don't care to answer the same time-wasting question for the hundredth time.

It's always 'the hundredth time' of not being able to answer the question of 'what is a woman'. Always.

Despite no one ever seeing the first time!

Come on let's have it

Yep. So predictable.

It's probably the question that the whole debate hinges on but they don't have a real answer for it so that's why they avoid answering every single time. They think a woman is either a collection of offensive and outdated stereotypes, or they think a woman is "anyone who says they're a woman" which renders the word utterly meaningless.

foxgoosefinch · 05/12/2021 23:59

And assigning social importance to sex is gender.

OM fucking god, SO CLOSE.

Just that little bit more….and then….

Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 00:00

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

It's a bimodal spectrum composed of different characteristics, different chromosome combinations, etc.

That's not an answer to 'what is the third sex'. If sex isn't binary, there must be at least third sex. What is it?

Do you accept that one sex class has, throughout history, oppressed the other sex class. And has always been able to tell who is of which sex class in order to carry out that oppression?

And has managed to do so without any of this utter guff about sex being a spectrum.

You're the only one who said anything a specific third sex.

It's like asking "how many numbers are there that are greater than 0 and smaller than 3?" You'd insist there are only two, but the actual answer is there are infinite. 1.6 and 2.3 are numbers.

You're thinking only in "whole" numbers, but the thing is, while there isn't a specific "third number", there's a whole range of numbers in that spectrum that aren't 1 or 2.

Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 00:02

@foxgoosefinch

And assigning social importance to sex is gender.

OM fucking god, SO CLOSE.

Just that little bit more….and then….

And then you go right back to talking about "male behavior" and imposing gendered labels, names, and pronouns on people, and insisting we segregate based on sex.

Do you think the act of segregating based on a specific characteristic isn't assigning social importance to that characteristic?

foxgoosefinch · 06/12/2021 00:02

Except there aren’t a whole range of DSDs. There are a very limited number of them.

Apollo441 · 06/12/2021 00:07

Bimodal spectrum my arse!
Nice word salad.
Here is a paper that hands you your arse. Not that you would ever know it. But for those with critical faculties, enjoy.

www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/2021/03/23/debunking-the-bimodal-sex-spectrum-graph/

Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 00:08

@Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet

I'm perfectly able to, I just don't care to answer the same time-wasting question for the hundredth time.

It's always 'the hundredth time' of not being able to answer the question of 'what is a woman'. Always.

Despite no one ever seeing the first time!

Come on let's have it.

"Woman" and "man" are socially constructed gender identities, originally based on physical characteristics, i.e. what you call biological sex, but not inherently part of it or bound by it.

These categories are imposed and enforced through social pressure.

foxgoosefinch · 06/12/2021 00:08

And then you go right back to talking about "male behavior" and imposing gendered labels, names, and pronouns on people, and insisting we segregate based on sex. Do you think the act of segregating based on a specific characteristic isn't assigning social importance to that characteristic?

This is all completely incoherent. How can you tell us this and then also say “trans women are women”? You’re doing all the assigning, labels and so on yourself. If you believed all of this you say, you’d be telling trans people they are all nonbinary and shouldn’t be using any gendered pronouns at all, in fact if we went by your claims all mention of man and woman would disappear and we would all be nonbinary “theys”.

So why aren’t you on some other social media, similarly lecturing the trans folx that they are assigning social importance to gender and that they should just stop imposing gender on everyone?

You know why - you want the labels and the pronouns, you just want it to be the ones you like, with some rules you want.